Mending on the Fly

Fishing Host
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Devin: [00:00:00] Today, I'm excited to introduce Allie Cunningham, the Director of Science on the Fly at the Woodwell Climate Research Center. Science on the Fly brings together anglers worldwide to participate in a citizen scientist program, using their love of fly fishing to help conserve the environment. Previously, Allie founded Set It Down LLC, which encourages people to disconnect from their screens and connect to nature. Allie's work involves guiding fly fishing in Colorado and advocating for watershed health and policy changes. With a strong background in ecology and a heartfelt dedication to conservation. Allie represents the spirit of making a difference one cast at a time. I'm grateful that she's here with us today and excited to hear about Allie's journey and learn how she combines science, sport, and sustainability to protect our planet's waterways. Allie, welcome, and thank you for being here.

Allie: Excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me and thanks for the, for the background [00:01:00] info. Um, I'm glad you knew about set it Down. I don't talk

Devin: yeah, yeah, that's

Allie: even though it still exists.

Devin: no, I bet, I know, you've like moved on.

Allie: Yeah. I'm

Devin: Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Allie: Fly.

Devin: Right. It, yeah, it seems like you've done a bunch to kind of get where you are.

Allie: Mm-Hmm.

Devin: Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and give us a little bit of your background and, and how you found fly fishing,

Allie: Yeah. I'm Cunningham. I am, I just turned 31, so I feel like I've done a lot, but I feel like there's a lot more to do and so I. I grew up on the East Coast. , right now I'm, I'm based in Driggs, Idaho. , but before that I was in Telluride, Colorado for about eight, nine years. And growing up, , in Massachusetts, I would frequent the ocean and sailing and all those activities.

Um, I grew up West for my little ranch camp, , that I was fortunate to attend. , and while at the ranch camp in [00:02:00] Wyoming, , I got into fly fishing. , we were on a backpacking trip. And my, my instructor had a fly fishing set up and asked if I wanted to join. And I said, sure. And so I went out and we fished for about an hour, kind of bunch of trout.

And then I was about 12 at the time. And I was like, thanks, don't need to do this again. Uh, see you later. Like, I was like, this is fun, but you know, honestly, , didn't think much of it after I went back to high school and did all the high school age things and

Devin: right?

Allie: went back out to the ranch camp when I was in college to work there for my summer jobs.

And I was just a counselor one year and, uh, same exact thing. My, my co lead on a backpacking trip brought his fly rod. I asked if I could borrow it. First cast, I caught a fish and I was like, Oh yeah, I remember I liked this and I was good at it. And then I just kind of ran with it from there. The next year I became the director of their fly fishing program.

Devin: Oh my God. The tug, the tug is the drug,

Allie: [00:03:00] yeah, yeah, and I very much, like, didn't know much, , I was learning every day, and I still am, which is the fun part of all of this, ,

Devin: mean, aren't

we all?

Allie: Yeah, I hope so. Um,

Devin: Yeah.

Allie: and so in college, I was studying, , in at the University of Colorado in Boulder, , I transferred a bunch, but I started and I ended there and I ended with ecology and evolutionary biology as my major.

I really like just getting my hands wet in my hands. Dirty for educational purposes. That's just how I learned. And I always find myself doing any bit of research near a water body. So after college, I didn't know what I was going to do. , my friend and I decided to move to Telluride. And I worked four jobs to get by one of the jobs eventually led me to the fly shop and also at the same time, I was cleaning water and collecting water samples, uh, coming from [00:04:00] old, , or coming from a mining restoration site.

So,

Devin: And what, , what waterway was that?

Allie: it was on the San Miguel watershed. So the San Miguel

Devin: The San Miguel. Okay,

Allie: So that's the main river that flows through Telluride, Colorado. Yeah. And that region is just. , littered and abandoned mines, um, and exploratory mining. So we, , we're at a old tailing site and a restoration project, , and just monitoring the water quality.

But at the same time, I was working at the fly shop and selling fly rides to people. I tried guiding for a little bit, , and I realized I just did not like guiding. , one, I had a super big dog that shed a lot. So the stress of having to drive a client in my, like, dog, bird, car was just too much. ,

Devin: That's hilarious. Yeah,

Allie: yeah, I mean, I just,

Devin: I feel like, well, I feel like that's part of the fly fishing experience too, is like golden retrievers and, you know,

Allie: Yeah, yeah, no, [00:05:00] yeah, the hair was extreme though, so, . Yeah, and I, I also realized I, so I came from a background working at the ranch camp of teaching kids how to fly fish so they would be able to take the hobby and the sport with them themselves and create a future for themselves so they're self sufficient with it as well.

So when , we would go out, it would be one instructor and I with about 15 kids and we, the goal was, you know, we would not be the ones to ever have to untangle anything because they weren't tangling anymore by the end of the week or the end of the month. , they could tie their own flies, they could tie on their own flies, they could cast efficiently, they could catch fish and release it all on themselves.

So that

Devin: It's awesome.

Allie: fun to see the progression throughout the entire time of their stay at camp for the month. And then when you go into the guiding side, it's just each day is going to be different based off of the client and what their goal is. And some of the goal is just to [00:06:00] catch the largest fish and for the most amount of fish.

And I just wanted to make sure people came away. With a respect for the resource and also with, , the ability to do it on their own each day beyond that. So, the fly shop also gives you a lot more job security for annual year round, uh, salary, or not salary, but pay wage. And I love the, the fly shop.

They're my, , family and so the way I got into science on the fly and where I am now. Was I was working at the fly shop and I was also doing the river water sampling work and the water sampling work was actually not public so I actually never got to see what the data said about the watershed. I was trying to improve.

I just collected it for someone and then they sent it to the lab. He got the data back. I never got access to it. It's really fine.

Devin: And this is all from the San Miguel.

Allie: yeah, and what I realized was then, like, I was [00:07:00] motivated by improving things. And if I just wasn't seeing it, , and also, uh, at the fly shop, I just. I wanted to make more of an impact, , going from guiding, toning to teach.

Okay. I want to be more impactful. And I just realized I am an impact based person. And so selling flyer ads to people that really honestly don't want to listen to what me as a female had to offer as a product from the fly shop. I mean, I'd get interrogated and interviewed basically every day. I tried to sell a fly ride or even a fly.

I'd get interviewed. Oh, you know, have you ever saltwater fished? Have you ever gone to this fishing place? How many blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you know, my colleagues who are male never actually got the interview side. They could just sell it. But I remember this. One phone call with a client and they just, they just hounded me with questions on my experience.

And yeah, it was just,

Devin: Right. It's like, you're a [00:08:00] woman. So now you got to prove yourself.

Allie: yeah. And one time, I mean, luckily the staff and my friends at that fly shop were amazing. And they would actually, one time someone came in the fly shop, you see them look around you, look for the male staff member. , and I was like, I can help you.

And eventually I was able to tell them about the conditions of the San Miguel and what flies to use. I told them all of this, this data, and then my colleague came out from the back room. And the guy just goes and asks him the same exact question. And my, my friend just goes, She just told, she just told you everything.

You weren't listening to her, so

Devin: oh, good.

Allie: know. And, but that happens a lot. A lot of people don't understand that too. But I was also, I feel like I went down a tangent. I don't normally go down this tangent. , But I,

Devin: okay. I mean, honestly, this is like an important tangent in fly fishing. You know, I mean, this sport is so traditionally white male,

like, I think it's natural and [00:09:00] important to talk about. Yeah. And it's like, important to talk about the diversity and trying to like drive. Exposure to the sport, to more communities like Susan Gates last week, you know, talking about women with breast cancer in urban and very rural areas, like don't really have the exposure to breast cancer treatment and fly fishing.

And, uh, so yeah, no, I think it's super relevant.

Allie: Yeah, we don't talk about it enough, and I've, I'm starting to realize that the more events I go to for Science on the Fly, if I mention something like this, because there's another female there, and we start connecting over stuff like this, the men around us start listening, and they're like, I had no idea.

And we're just, we just laugh. We're like, yeah, it happens all the time. But I wasn't aware of it until I came back out to Wyoming to fish. And some old white man just decided to mansplain to me how to fly fish after we had had such a successful morning. And he [00:10:00] was telling us how terrible of a day it was for fly fishing.

So I'm just now in my head having a normal conversation like I had every day at the fly shop. And my best friend was just like, Oh, how can you deal with this? Let's go. And she's like, how can you let someone speak to you like that? And you just like nod. Then she actually made me aware of how oblivious I was to being, how, how treated I was, and also it just made me be like, yeah, I want to go back into making more impact instead of talking about the same old thing.

So, Signs on the Fly, we'll go back to that side. , the way I got involved with Signs on the Fly

Devin: Yeah,

Allie: And we'll go into the creation of Science on the Fly, but, uh, the fly shop I was working at, Telluride Angler, was the very first pilot fly shop for the, for the project. And when they created the project, I wasn't a part of that creation process.

But, , the second we started saying, oh, let's start doing a monitoring project. I was like, ding, I'll be, I'll be the volunteer to help, to help go [00:11:00] collect that water sample once a month. They combined fly fishing and it combined. Conservation and the, , water sampling aspect that I was already doing into one cohesive project.

So I was like, obviously, I want to get involved. And as I started collecting water samples for it, it just, I just got super excited by it, by it. And, , I was like, Dr. Holmes, who created it alongside Johnny LaCocque, like, how can I get more involved? How can we grow this thing? And yeah, so now I'm the director of the Science on the Fly project.

And as you mentioned, it is a project of Woodwell Climate Research Center and Fish Pond. Um, yeah, so

Devin: Yeah. So,

Allie: tangent, but I brought us back. I apologize.

Devin: no, I like it. Nice job. That's good. It, , no, but it's all like, perfectly relevant. I mean, it's important to talk about to the, the, like, the sport needs more diversity and,

Allie: and education

Devin: know, I think it's great that [00:12:00] you brought it, up. Yeah. Yeah.

for sure. I mean, it.

well, you know, like, one of the interesting things is, , I live in Maryland and like, we've got some incredible rivers, like the gunpowder river, which is like just 20 minutes north of Baltimore. And it's like, man, like so many people could get so much out of. Fly fishing, but you know, they might not be exposed to it. And so, , so I think it's I think it's a great topic and something that should be talked about.

Allie: Yeah,

Devin: So I appreciate you bringing it up. Uh

Allie: and a lot of it, too, they might not be exposed because it's intimidating. My being at the fly shop as a female, I was the person that all females that walked into that fly shop would walk towards. Even for my partner, he has been an angler just as long as I have been, but he wants me to be the one talking in a fly shop because there's this weird [00:13:00] vibe that comes off that sometimes like, you don't want to ask too much of like a weird, a stupid question, not all fly shops.

It's just like this, like secret intimidation. Once you're in this fly fishing

Devin: Yeah.

Allie: if you don't know a lot of the community members, it is a little intimidating to just. Act like you, you need help, , and ask for help and just in modern society, it's hard for us to ask for help. So going into a fly shop and

Devin: Oh, yeah.

Allie: buy, it's pretty interesting.

So he, I can talk the lingo and I'm more, more of a flowy state because I worked at a fly shop for so long. , but for Ben, he, he definitely feels a little intimidated whenever he goes into a fly shop, just, just to ask about what's happening in the local region.

Devin: Yeah, that and like, start getting into like, the different weights and diameters of leaders and tippets and what weight fly I should be using or what size for what weight line. It's like, you know, that always used to like, it's like, I don't really want to ask that

to this, you know,[00:14:00]

Allie: Yeah. No, it's true. It happens

Devin: avid angler. Yeah. So, so science on the fly started with Telluride Angler. And you were collecting samples once a month and and so is this from like the same spot in the river or is it you doing different spots? How does how did that all work as you know, in the pilot?

Allie: Yeah. It's a great question. So we established sampling locations. , and I might quickly just back up and give a quick background on what Science on Flight is. Is that if

Devin: Yeah, please. Yeah, that'd be Great. Yes. Yeah. so

what can you tell me a little bit more about science on the fly?

Allie: yeah, of course, so Science on the Fly is a community science project that partners with anglers all around the world. And these anglers collect water samples for us once a month. We then utilize those water samples, well, we then analyze those water samples at a [00:15:00] lab at Woodwell Climate Research Center in Massachusetts.

And then we utilize that data to act on policies to better protect our watersheds. So we started in 2019. July of 2019. , and the way this, the way this whole program that created was Dr. Max Holmes. He's now the CEO and president of Woodwell Climate Research Center. Before that, he was the deputy director of Woodwell Climate Research Center's Woodwell Water Project.

He would go around all around the world to about 10 of the largest watersheds and for about a month each year and take water samples from them and monitor What was happening to them over the years. So to do that type of research, she's going to super far away regions. So he might be going to the Yena river.

He might be going down to the Amazon. He's he's going all around the world and it's super expensive to get there, super carbon heavy to get there. And then you're only [00:16:00] taking a water sample for a month long of a year. So you're not getting a whole snapshot of what's happening throughout the entire system throughout the year.

And He's also an angler, so he would always bring his flyer out and he was like, there must be a better way to get more people involved so you can get more consistent data at a fraction of the cost over more locations. And he, at the same time, had just met Johnny LeCoke, who is the founder of Fishpond and co owner of Fishpond.

And they were at a mountain film in Telluride, Colorado, and we're on a panel and they start talking and Max is like mesmerized by Johnny because he owns Fish Pond and in the fly fishing world, a lot of us love Fish Pond and, .

Devin: Oh, I mean, I've I've got my Thunderbird. Yeah, I've got my

Thunderbird waist pack submersible. Yeah, I'm I'm there.

Allie: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. All of it. And they started talking about it.

And Johnny is a huge conservationist. , [00:17:00] and they walked into the fly shop, Telluride Angler. Max is really good friends with them. They, we used to carry, or we do carry a bunch of fishpond stuff. So, it was a good starting point. And they started talking about, , the problem they were trying to solve, , science in the fly.

Was a solution. , so in 2019, started the program, I was working at the fly shop. I took it upon myself to be the sampler for the fly shop. And then, yeah, so what we would do back then, the first year we are fly shop model. We were very much reaching out to fly shops, asking them, Hey, do you want a sample for us?

, what we realized though is flash ups have a bunch of overhead once they have their super busy season. So until you're out as a summer season, sampling can just get away from you and we fully understand that. , and we also realized, so in 20, 2019 it started, but in 2020 COVID hit. We were six months old.

I just started really talking to Johnny Max about how can we grow this thing? And all of a sudden we were all just [00:18:00] homebound and we were on computers and some of our jobs just like. We don't know what to do. And we were able to find time with about eight of us to get together and really create what you see in front of you for Science on the Fly.

So all of the protocols in place. And the website, how our shipping, what we do for shipping, how everything's analyzed, all, everything you see right now, we very much created back in 2020. And when we did that, we had an online signup form and Devin, I think I saw yours come through the other day. You're,

Devin: did. Yes.

Allie: I

Devin: Do you think that that science on the fly would be as effective today? Had COVID not happened?

Allie: think it would have taken us a longer time to establish it. , we grew. We grew very quickly in 2020 to the point that by

Devin: it's great.

Allie: we're saying, let's pause onboarding. So when we did that, we had this, that, , online form [00:19:00] that you could fill out. And all of a sudden we saw individuals filling out the form saying they wanted to get involved.

And our goal that year was to be in all 50 states. But I mean, it just like took off. So, and what we realized too, when we passed, started giving them an onboarding them for sampling, and I was doing that as a volunteer at the time, because I was just so passionate about the project. I was like, Ooh, Max, can we onboard this person?

And so I'm really

Devin: Bring them on.

Allie: my full time job and I don't need four jobs to live in a mountain town. But back then I was just a volunteer calling them and we'd onboard. And we realized that the individual model is so much stronger. Then going through and asking the fly shops, because if you reach out to us, knowing your capacity of wanting to get involved and wanting to give back to the environment, then you're going to be more, more enthusiastic about going out every month and really take it upon yourself to get it done or the fly shut.

Like there's so much to do. [00:20:00] They've overhead. So yeah,

Devin: Well, and there's like a, and there's like, it's like transient. It's like, some of them are college kids. Some of them are,

you know, maybe like seasonal, whatever. They might just not be there.

Allie: Yeah. And it's, there's, yeah. We have every type of person involved in our project, which is awesome. And what we've realized through it, uh, is that it's a free toolkit, Plants on the Flies. What we do, it's a free toolkit for the anglers to give back to their watersheds. And what I realized after, this happened for me, but after I started collecting water samples, And then getting my data back, I became such a bigger river steward and a bigger activist for my watershed, and I wasn't just an angler anymore.

I looked so much deeper into it and how I can better improve what was around me, and I've noticed that with almost all of our volunteers. They'll start as an angler, then

Devin: Well, like,

Allie: river trash pickups, and [00:21:00] yeah, they just get so involved, and it gets really, really exciting to see.

Devin: Yeah, well, I mean, it's like, you know, it just gives you this, , buy in this, like, natural buy in. Uh, it's like, if we're going to help study this and, you know, at the same time, , learn about it. I mean, me about nitrate and ammonium, you know, and in my local rivers, I'm not going to be able to tell you much, but , once I get my first sample bottle, I'm, I'm all in, you know, it's going to be cool.

Allie: In the long term, we hope to educate the community scientists, and then they can educate others, but yeah, the short, we have, Our main goal is to add to the data set of climate science on our watersheds, , and then utilize that data to act on policies, but short term, We have all this data, I mean, to, to know what is, , and the nutrient concentrations because of the climate.

We can't just talk about that from a year's worth of data. We need a lot more data to back that up. We need to be looking at trends. And so in the short term, we have all this data. [00:22:00] Let's use it. It shouldn't just be stagnant and sitting there and not open to the public. All of our data is open to the public.

We want you to utilize it. You can find it on our website. And. When we see something eye opening, when we're looking at our, at the concentrations, we're going to say, okay, can we dig in deeper with our data? , can we make an effective change now instead of in 20 years when we're looking at it to see what, what the climate did to the watershed?

So if we're seeing nitrate or phosphate super high near water, , near a waterway that one of our community scientists samples on, we're going to reach out to our community scientists. And be like, hey, do you know of any influences this

Devin: something going on.

Allie: And also, and they're more informed about what's happening, we're more informed about the local area and then we can work together and with other organizations and community members to towards trying to find a solution or if it needs to be something on the policy [00:23:00] side.

Yeah, there's many different areas we can go to in terms of impact with our data. And I feel like this past year, since we're 5 years young, we're really just getting started, which is really fun.

Devin: Yeah, now, obviously, there was the pilot program, but like, were you guys able to get any sort of Historical data on the data points that you were looking for. So, like, for San Miguel, for instance, like, you know, was there nitrate and then all all the various chemicals that you're looking at? What was their research beforehand that you were able to draw on?

Allie: Yeah, that's a great question. So historical data, each location is going to be different. So regardless of it being part of the pilot area, because San Miguel, I kept sampling up until I moved to Idaho. And now we've passed it off to one of my friends there for sampling. But the biggest thing is we not, we try not to be in duplication of anyone's research efforts.

We try to be in collaboration. And a [00:24:00] lot of people aren't actually looking at the same suite of nutrients we're looking at. So we're able to work in collaboration typically. , there's been a, , one or two instances where we're in full duplication. That's okay. Then we can just make sure, , our data is actually pretty similar.

The integrity of it is good. But historical data, some locations will have it. Maybe not for all of the parameters we're looking at. , you'll see nitrate a lot. You'll see phosphate a lot. You won't really see, you might not see, , dissolved organic carbon or silica all the time. So each location is going to be different, but, and you might see some of the data, you know, start, stop, start, stop.

Yeah, and the other thing too is just trying to find and consolidate all this data. There's a lot out there, not all of it's public. So even if I can do a bunch of deep dive into regions that we're sampling on, I might still miss some historical data I didn't know about, but For the most part, when we start really doing the report writing for Science on [00:25:00] the Fly, that's when we'll really dig into the historical side, if we can find any, yeah.

Devin: And what sort of timeline are you guys looking at for that? Is that I mean, is it 10 years, 20 years?

Allie: We'll go back as far as we can for that, yeah, , to add to it.

Devin: and just keep updating

Allie: on the Fly, yeah, yeah, and that's, that as we write reports again, if we can utilize some old data, we will, but it's not our Science on the Fly, we will climate data, so. We also have to be careful, , the way we do our analysis is with super techy analyzers at our lab that basically, so if you take like a pH test strip, think of it that way, that changes the colors of your watershed, but it's like that real time, you dip it, it comes out a certain color, take that and like just put it into like this world class, These world class analyzers that use a bunch of systems to understand what a certain big color is, [00:26:00] and then it plops out through a bunch of algebra.

The actual nutrient concentration. , that is there. That's like my easiest way of explaining it, and I'm not the PhD chemist in this.

Devin: Nor am I. And, but that makes, that's a nice visualization for me. I, and is that technology like pretty new? Is there any sort of, I mean, I think, , technology always, you know, holds us back to some degree. We don't know what we don't know until something new is invented. Is there, are you guys kind of on the, like, cutting edge of this or, , are you guys, you know, waiting.

Yeah. For new technology to come out. Okay.

Allie: we just got a new analyzer, but no, so we're, they're, we're not, these analyzers, many laboratories have them. The reason why a laboratory might have one over the other is based off of goals that the research organization is doing, but also the cost. So we wish we [00:27:00] could analyze for metals and for PFAS and forever chemicals, but

Devin: Peef off.

Allie: so PFAS are basically a forever chemical thing of it that way.

, they don't, it's basically, they do not

Devin: Oh, like from plastics.

Allie: system. Yeah. From plastics from synthetic. So like your clothes that have like Gore Tex on them, , they might shed into the environment. , and you'll see it that way.

Devin: Oh, interesting.

Allie: Yeah, and I'm still very much learning about it, but I'm not in depth on it because we don't focus on the area.

so we there's other organizations that might just do the metal. So we're X and we can complement each other with her data because they have the analyzer. That can look at metal concentrations. We have the analyzer that can look at nutrient concentrations. And so when we're looking at historical data, we want to know what kind of methods they were doing with the analysis.

Like, was it the dip in the water strip kind of thing, or was it? The same type [00:28:00] of, , analyzers we're using. Was it from one of our colleagues research organization? So when you switch, like, and pass off where you analyze your data, you also have to be kind of careful just to make sure things don't get skewed.

Um, it's, it's good to keep your data on, like, the same location or so I've learned. So, yeah, and I've been learning a lot for the data and the lab side of things and the, then all of the. The background on the science side, I'm learning a lot, which has been really fun.

Devin: Yeah, it sounds like it. It sounds super cool. , I'm

like ready to.

Allie: a request.

Devin: Yeah, I'm definitely ready to start collecting samples. No problem there.

But, , so 5 years old, what sort of, if you can share, what sort of, , policy goals do you have right now based on the research you've done? Or, you know, what, what do you plan on in the future? , [00:29:00] In other words, are you guys, do you guys have, , certain areas, certain watersheds that you're looking at that are, , Of particular concern, or is it

still just very much in the collection phase?

Allie: both. So collection phase, analyzing phase. So going back to like all the equipment we have, SentinelFly was so successful the first couple years and still. We got a backlog of water samples because COVID hit, we were all at our houses, the lab was closed, so as water samples came in they just accumulated in the freezer and we've just been playing a catch up game ever since.

In our analyzer we only had one and we actually this week just got a new one. So the new analyzers, according to Andy, who is basically our lab queen lab manager, she does everything. , she said, it's just so much faster than the old analyzer. So we have high hopes for getting more. Data out, so we're [00:30:00] very much in still analysis side, and then for the policy side, so analysis, and then it'll go to short term, long term, short term, any eye opening things we need to look at.

So a lot of that's going to be human influenced right now. So, we're going to be looking at wastewater treatment facilities and their effluent compliances. We're going to be looking at. Agricultural areas, urbanization, stormwater runoff, all of that kind of thing, , is where short term data is going to be looking at if there's anything eye opening we can focus on.

Long term, again, it's going to be the climate side.

Devin: Okay, and so I, so 2 things there, , 1 is, , interestingly last summer here in Maryland, , like a small creek, it's called Beaver Creek. There was

this big fish kill essentially, , at there was a huge deluge that happened overnight and a ton of rain fell real fast and all the fish [00:31:00] died. , people went the next day and they were fish floating. Bottoms up and although the, I think, I think the Maryland department of environment, , their report is like a little bit inconclusive, but, there are theories out there that point to, nearby roads and possible runoff of, , rubber chemicals or, just stuff like that. And there's no retention pond or anything like that. So yeah, it just is very interesting. Very relevant. I think in

kind of the research that you're doing. So that's,

Allie: yeah.

Devin: I

Allie: I mean, it, it is

Devin: falls in line with the eye opening.

Allie: Yeah, it does. And a lot of it, so, for the policy side, for that, it's something where okay, if we're seeing a lot of our data, we can bring that to Capitol Hill and start saying, , these are our sampling locations, the filthiest of all of them are the ones under Waste Water Treatment Facilities.

[00:32:00] When looking at, say, wastewater treatment facilities, they've been out of compliance x, y, z, or they haven't, or their limits are very, very off from what they potentially should be. And so hopefully we can utilize our data to help inform the policymakers on maybe pushing more money towards better infrastructure, infrastructure for wastewater treatment facilities, but can we add on to that the climate side, make sure their new build outs have a climate plan as storms intensify.

Bye bye. So as these storms are intensifying, all of a sudden so much water is flushing down the system. Wastewater treatment facilities are overcharged, a bunch of the stuff just, and crap just isn't actually treated, it overflows out of their area into the watersheds. So, can we utilize our data to help influence policies like that on the human side?

But then, yeah, for like, can we help increase knowledge on the importance of having those buffer zones for say the The stormwater [00:33:00] runoff right now. There's some talk about, , making new rules for, , basically meat and poultry effluents and where that waste goes. And so we can use our data to help indicate that different management practices can be beneficial for the environment and then also for potential climate resiliency down the road.

That's going to be huge. But we're just getting started in that. Our first year was. Thanks. This fall, we went to Capitol Hill, , to really meet senators. And the, a big part of Science on the Fly is just to communicate. It's a communication vessel and we're able to bridge the gap between policymakers that might just not believe on some issues, say about climate change.

But we all believe in if, if they like to fly fish, we all like to fly fish. And when we like to fly fish, we really need those healthy rivers. And we love healthy rivers. And all of us are really sick when we see. A really terrible looking river. We hate it and we want to protect it. So if we can work together by [00:34:00] talking about the sport we all love, which is fly fishing and talk about it from that perspective.

It's not going to be an issue where we're able to just talk to more people and have an agreement between people about wanting to protect the health of our rivers rather than making it a super partisan issue. It's not it's bipartisan. We can all work together. And I, growing up, was not into politics. I followed it, like, around the time of elections, and It was just a super

Devin: As you're forced to. Yeah,

Allie: was, extremely controversial for my family. So, and we'd rather just have a family. And so to have a family, we couldn't talk about politics. And it was just reality.

Devin: Well, that, yeah,

Allie: so I, , never thought ever in my life I would be going into policy. And what I

Devin: Going to Capitol Hill.

Allie: Right.

Devin: [00:35:00] Yeah.

Allie: But what I realized, I was so intimidated by it too, going into Capitol Hill.

I was just, I was sweating. I was just like, Oh my gosh, this is so scary. And when you're passionate about something, you're going to do everything you can to protect it. And it is so easy to just go to Capitol Hill and start lobbying for the protection of that thing you want to, that you love. And sitting in the Senator's offices and the Congresswoman and Congresswoman's offices.

It was so easy to sit there and connect with them to talk about our love for rivers and what we need to do better to protect it. So we all can utilize it later and down the road. So to think a fly fishing project that collects water samples can go into Capitol Hill. And then now I talk about wastewater treatment plants a lot.

I feel like I never thought that would happen. And I'm really glad we're at this stage of science on the fly where we can start switching gears and making impact and joining the community, getting the [00:36:00] community members together to start really making impact for raising awareness of what's happening on watersheds.

Devin: Yeah. And it sounds just based on our conversation that. Wastewater treatment is a priority for science on the

Allie: For me, for me.

Devin: or okay for you. Sorry. I don't want to speak for the entire project,

Allie: Yeah.

Devin: but can you explain because I'm totally unfamiliar with it, but wastewater treatment. How does it actually work? And how does it work now? And how can we actually make it better?

Allie: So the first thing for that is to look at the permitting system that is. Within each wastewater treatment facility, um, each state's going to have different limits and different standards and it's very complicated. How do I, how do I make it digestible? So, basically, all of our [00:37:00] waste goes through wastewater treatment facility or how we, or so we hope.

Stormwater drainages. Typically those are not getting treated. Um, but so say for a small, I'll think of these small little communities I've lived in. So you have your small town and it all gets pushed through the wastewater treatment facility. They're going to basically. Get all of the waste out, they're going to zap out of any bad biological waste, anything that could potentially infect you, or not infect you, but make you sick, air quotes

Devin: Like bacteria is all

that. Yeah,

Allie: and then usually those waste water treatment facilities will take the solid that comes from the waste, they might actually reuse it, say on agricultural fields.

Devin: Okay.

Allie: you know, I, there's, that's a whole different topic and then what is left and what's technically air quotes cleaned will be allowed to get discharged out of the wastewater treatment facility and where it gets discharged is straight [00:38:00] into a river system.

So, you have this clean river going through this tiny little town, and then it has all this different nutrient concentrations and different chemistry upstream of the wastewater treatment facility. When you start looking at the concentrations below the wastewater treatment facility, you might see like your

Devin: Vastly different.

Allie: Yeah, and it depends on how close you are for sampling. So, If your watershed is large enough for dilution, which typically, the permits are going to associate that, oh, it's going to get dilated in this larger river, so you're not going to notice it when you're taking, say, concentrations. Are water samples to look at concentrations.

So the effluent or the discharge that's allowed to go into the stream. That's kind of the area where it changes. All the permits are going to be different based off of the capacity of the facility of what's coming in. How large the river is it's going into. There's all these different factors. States have different [00:39:00] regulations

Devin: these are, these are state, these are state permits, not federal.

Allie: Yeah, so each state's going to be different, but a lot of our infrastructure, you know, we need to really, and with the growth of what's happened in this country, wastewater treatment facilities, some of, a lot of them, or some of them are behind. But if you do look into a lot of what the grant writing has been then, and where it's getting allocated, it is towards building larger wastewater treatment facilities, so we can clean up more of our crap.

Devin: Yeah,

literally.

Allie: Yeah, so it's. For me, it's something just because we had our first, I'm going to air quote again. I like air quotes.

Devin: Sure.

Allie: It was, it was kind of our first win revolved around a wastewater treatment facility, and I like to say we helped expose the issue we helped it was already exposed to some degree, but through the power of the community scientists in the local angling community, as well as.

The power of a [00:40:00] photo and social media and getting it on the mainstream channels of that local region that we, so I like to help say we helped expose it. Now, this wastewater treatment facility was discharging super out of their limits. We happened to catch it. We caught it with our data. The locals had already known about it.

They're trying to push it forward, but, you know, you're always going to get backlash when you have this company that. Just, they can just say, oh, we're not doing it. Or, oh, we paid the 100 fine for polluting the river, but all of a sudden we took this photo, it circulated. That wastewater treatment facility got approved for a 21 million tertiary filtration system to, to improve the effluent and like what comes out of that wastewater treatment facility.

Devin: That's awesome.

Allie: it's awesome. There's still a lot of work to do, but it's kind of the idea behind it

Devin: But it, it wouldn't have happened without the data.

Allie: have happened. It would have taken a lot longer for it to happen. And there's still a large fight. [00:41:00] But it opened up to my eyes, the importance of looking at it in that area.

Now, other organizations have known about this forever and ever and ever. , we're again, 5 years young and so. It's not like it's an easy place to go focus our attention on our wastewater treatment facilities. It's just a large issue that's showing up in a lot of our data. When we see data points off, it's going to be wastewater, typically.

So if we can help

Devin: Right. Right. There's a whole host.

There's a whole host of, of problems out there.

Allie: Yeah, and we get to educate the everyday angler about wastewater treatment facilities now, and about climate resilience areas, and about nutrients changing and why, and how it's going to affect our trout populations and the fish populations. So, at the end of the day.

Especially after that Science on the Fly, you really start realizing is it, it's not just a community science project. It is a communication vessel on what's happening in these watersheds, for everyone to make it digestible [00:42:00] too, because I come at it from an entrepreneurial fly fishing girl, did a, like I did water sampling, but I didn't understand really what I was doing.

And I work alongside PhD chemists And I, we get to figure out together how to make this information digestible for the everyday angler to understand instead of being like, I have no idea what X, Y, and Z means when, and when you're talking about that, we all know what water temperature means and what can happen on a watershed due to that.

We don't know. We're all learning what nutrient concentrations do and, and. Now we can start making it digestible for everyone.

Devin: It's super interesting because, I know my pretty much all time favorite river to fish in Maryland is the Savage River up in Western Maryland and Garrett County. And my understanding is that for a long time, there was, there were mines up there and, mining runoff essentially destroyed the, the trout population [00:43:00] and the, and the hatches and everything else.

The ecological impact of that was drastic. And since then, there I think the community pulled together. I don't know all the details, but long story short, they were able to to essentially help the river recover. And now it's. Uh, a mainstay fly fishing location for Marylanders and and folks from Pennsylvania.

Devin: But knowing that. As an angler, as someone who just likes to go out on the river that I could potentially have an impact or, , go collect data and make. Watershed observations. I mean, it's just it's empowering to, to, an angler and it gives me a second reason to just to go up there and go fishing.

I think it's, I think it's super cool. It's a win win.

Allie: It's great. And that's why, why I got super into the program in general back in

Devin: Yeah.

Allie: I just felt so empowered giving back to my watershed. I was like, Oh, look at the [00:44:00] 60 milliliter water sample. It's now going to like, Take a journey to Massachusetts and we're going to learn so much about this river and, , but the other fun thing is I got to see the data on the backside and I got to understand the data on the backside and then over time, we get to establish what we can do with the data and you're going to be a part of the process.

If you're part of our project. From A through Z, I think the biggest downfall is we just can't accommodate for every angler to get involved for the actual sampling. Because we need to stay sustainable. We're a tiny team. For our project, it's myself, Andrea Norton, and Anya. And so I like to say we're small and mighty, but I can't manage more than 150.

Community scientists and each water sample costs a hundred dollars from A to Z and most of the time it's going to be in the lab because it takes about a week just to analyze one water sample we do it in batches of 60 [00:45:00] but so we just need to make sure we're sustainable so when people would reach out about I want to get involved it's really hard to deny them but we are starting to work together with an app to Basically allow, , the folks that fly fish and utilize this app to add to the community science data set.

So they might not be taking a water sample, but they can contribute to conservation and research efforts by saying, they might prompt them saying, Oh, do you have a thermometer? Can you take a water temperature reading? Send it put it in here. What are some observations? Can you take a picture of your river for us upstream, downstream?

What are the smells you smell, anything off, what hatches do you see, and then also we can just get a lot more data. So, science on the fly, but it's also this app, and we're able to just start collecting, collecting, collecting. And then we can start making potential, just more, add to the data set of, for these rivers, and how they're changing.

Devin: And [00:46:00] what is that app live or is that in development?

Allie: Yeah, so the app, um, it's the OnWater app, and

Devin: okay. yeah, actually.

Allie: can send you a link to it.

Devin: Okay.

Yeah, I can include that in. , well, I, I think on they had a booth. I went to the Virginia fly fishing convention a month ago and I think they were down there as well. They had a booth. But yeah, I will, I'll include their link as well in anything that I publish, but

Allie: That's not live yet. We're still working it out, but it's really awesome because we've been trying to figure it out. And also, like, we always wanted to have an app just to upload our community scientists data and building an app is not cheap. , and we didn't want to, reinvent

Devin: no, no.

Allie: yeah, so luckily we were able to work together and, , we're able to.

Add to, , these data sets, hopefully we're, we're still in the [00:47:00] testing stage, the building and testing stages. So it's kind of a look for it down the road after this podcast later. Yeah,

Devin: yeah,

That's right.

Allie: yeah.

Devin: It just going back at, going back a second. I know you said. You're, obviously involved on Capitol Hill, but , there are so many state regulations and policies that pertain to agriculture, waste management, you need recycling, you name it. There's there are state, there are things that the federal government is involved in, and there's things that they aren't. How much do you guys work with state governments and, or is there a plan to work with state governments in the future? Obviously, like you just said, it's a, it's a very small team, but with Woodwell, is that something you guys do?

Allie: Signs on the fly itself is getting into that right now. So a lot of like, for what we do for [00:48:00] policy right now, it's very much relationship building to be able to expand on collaborating. For things down the

Devin: Yeah.

Allie: but for Woodwell Climate Research Center, they have a whole government affairs team. They are also a small yet mighty team, but we have many projects within the larger Woodwell organization, so they work with each team to see what we can push through towards policy and working with state officials.

So we have, a really good Thank you. Relationship with Senator Markey, Massachusetts, working with a lot of our climate research initiatives, and then, yeah, the Woodville Climate, it's pretty fun learning all the policy things, that they're doing with their work, and some of them, I'm just like, blown away by with what they are presenting to top officials, about what, what they've been

Devin: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that reminded me of another question I wanted to go back to, but I know that. Science on the fly is like international as well. And [00:49:00] with Dr. Holmes kind of starting internationally, I imagine that data set is for the long term looking at overall climate, but what sort of like plans for international expansion are there?

What sort of goals do you guys have?

Allie: Max, so quickly backing up to what Max did before, so he had actually. If you think about, their origin of science on the fly, it came long before this type of, between the anglers and community science. Max would go around the world, and he has research colleagues that would collect in all these different locations on a month.

They were doing it for 20 years. They just had a 20 year report come out of their findings. And

Devin: Oh, cool. Okay.

Allie: a lot more of their data. So, that's a, they were in partnership with Woodwell. That is called Arctic Grow. Um, I can, if I remember, I'll try to send

Devin: Oh, I think I saw that on the Woodwell website. [00:50:00]

Allie: Yeah, yeah.

Devin: Yeah. Okay.

Allie: Fly project, but think of it as like, The original like the grandfather to this project and then then there's also keep rivers observatory So focused more on Cape Cod and then we have science on the fly for science on the flies expansion Internationally, we've so we still have the area where people reach out to us to onboard if we see it going international We do look into it.

We want to see If we can a lot of it too, though, is we don't want to get ahead of ourselves. We want to make sure we have all approvals from the indigenous communities in those regions 1st or from, say, the kingdom. Like, we want to make sure we're doing things. Right, and legally,

Devin: Mm hmm.

Allie: so we're not just gonna jump

Devin: right Send us your water. Yeah.

Allie: and we also want to make sure we have a plan behind it here in the U.

S. We can ship things overnight pretty easily. Our volunteers hold on to their water samples that they collect [00:51:00] for six months, and then they overnight it to Woodwell Climate Research Center, and we pay for everything. And so, you know, we don't want to compromise a water sample coming from somewhere in the UK for overnight shipping, but it gets held up in customs for so long.

So, the strategy right now for going into more international locations is going to be through lodge partnerships.

That's kind of where we're looking at right now. So, we just started

Devin: Yeah. I saw that the Untamed

Allie: Mm

Devin: Yeah.

Allie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we just started partnering with Untamed last year. they, they basically have these super remote fishing lodges all around the world, and they work alongside the Indigenous communities in those regions, and a part of the profits they make goes towards Indigenous communities.

And some of them, some of the locations, they already do have research going on, which is an even [00:52:00] bigger bonus, so it might already be on biodiversity monitoring or a bunch of different things, but so we're going to, we go in a hosted trip with potential donors to want to support Science on the Fly and also so we can talk about the project and a goal, creation, and it's a really good way just to start going into these locations, establishing the sampling, getting the guide sampling, understanding why we're doing it, educating them.

They can then continue to teach the, the clients that come throughout the season on what we're trying to do in that region, and also just on the sampling methods. And then hopefully those, those clients want to support untamed or the local region's resources to better protect it. And also potentially want to support signs on the fly.

And so last year they went to Bolivia with untamed this year. We're doing an all women's trip to Brazil. So any of your

Devin: Oh, [00:53:00] cool.

Allie: want to do it, all women's trip to Brazil to help us implement our research there. Please reach out to me because I'll be hosting that with one of our lead scientists from Woodwell who does most of her research on the rivers around Brazil already, so she already is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to just conservation efforts and climate research in that region.

Devin: that sounds so fun. I

Allie: Yeah, I'm

Devin: would love to go. When are you guys going on that trip?

Allie: That one's in August.

Devin: Okay,

Allie: Yeah. Yeah, we're,

Devin: And so if people are listening and they want to get involved, understanding the backlog and understanding the, logistical constraints that you're under at this point, What is the best way? how, how can listeners get involved in support?

Allie: If they have an extra 25, we'd love your donations, for support. But [00:54:00] no, seriously, the biggest thing I want people to do is just start taking your own physical observations when you're out on the watershed and do anything you can to improve it. So pick up that piece of trash you see. It's really disturbing how much you go fishing with people and they just they're like, oh, yeah I hate how much trash is on the ground and they actually walk right by it and they don't pick it

Devin: just walk past it.

Allie: Yeah, and every day.

I mean, I feel like I don't fish anymore I feel like I'm just collecting flies off of trees that people left and so what people can do, you know Definitely reach out. We have an ongoing list of signups that people have Or of where people have made a request and I'm definitely not the fastest at responding to that because I need to hire someone to help me with that.

But doing that, we actually, I do a, online audit every year and you can take this out if you want, because I know I could go down a little tangent, but I do audit every year to see if, hey, volunteers, do you still want to [00:55:00] continue sampling or do you need to swap it off? And what I'll do then is go through the database of who's reached out to see if there's anyone in that region that we can swap them with.

So it's really good to have that info. I just can't guarantee that we're going to be able to onboard you right away. hopefully we can down the road. But yeah, and then once that OnWater app comes out, download it and start making your own observations and adding to the research. And yeah, whatever you can do, just, just be a advocate for your river and try to research a little bit more about.

Your local ecosystems and how you can make them better. That's what I would say.

Devin: Yeah. There's a lot that people can do beyond just taking water samples. So, and even, like getting involved, joining a local angling club, I know, here in Maryland, Antietam anglers or Antietam fly anglers, there's, there they work hard to to try to advocate for various water, watersheds and waterways around the state.

Yeah. Super important just to get involved.

Allie: Yeah, [00:56:00] and share the knowledge and you never know. We have, , the historical data. We have some of our volunteers have access to historical data of hatches, and we're trying to compile that so that we can now make it a continuous recording on what hatches have been happening and how early, how late. So, you know, write that down, get a notebook, write it down, or use your phone, write your observations.

And then the next time you go fishing, you'll observe something even more, but keep learning as you're fly fishing. We should always be learning when we're out exploring outdoors and especially on the river, so. Yeah,

Devin: And so that does, I mean, bring up a good question. so when I'm out fishing, the big things are, are water temperature hatches, probably ambient temperature. And then I imagine you guys are able to tap into the USGS for discharge rates and all that sort of stuff. But is, is [00:57:00] wildlife the, like hatches? Is that one of the

more important things you, you plan on looking at in the future?

Allie: yeah, down the road. We're on the chemistry side of things. So it's nice to have that data. And then if we start working with, , the entomologists, then we can, and the

Devin: Right, see if there's a correlation.

Allie: Yeah. And we can give that to them, but I would love to hire those people and they can, we can start talking about that more.

We're not, we're not there. And

Devin: Yeah.

well, I mean, it's, it's starting now, five

Allie: Yeah. And , talk about, you know, the, the, the fish that you've caught, the size of them. , talking about the smell, , different smell, if I'm sometimes sampling, I get a, it smells like a pool near me. And that's because.

Wastewater treatment facility was doing, was basically doing their job and work, , like, trying to clean up their, their water system, but I could smell it. Um, so maybe they were discharging it right [00:58:00] then.

Devin: Yeah.

Allie: Oh, yeah, if you see the flood, like how hot if it looks like there's a lot of one, it might have been a lot of precipitation right ahead of time is your is the flow higher or lower than normal is did it did it snow a bunch?

Has it not snowed at all? And it normally does just I always say take what's ever in your head. And put it onto your piece of paper. Yeah, and , that will help everyone at the end of the day and hopefully that tool that OnWater's creating will make it so you guys can easily just upload it and we'll kind of, what's the word, we'll just, there'll be an outline of what we're trying to look for and then you can look through it and like even water clarity, there'll be like a, like a, it's clear, it's not clear, it's The visibility

Devin: Right. Like a little one through 10.

Allie: Yeah, so we're developing that.

Devin: It gives you another engaging way to, [00:59:00] to just be out there

and I will definitely start doing that. So Yeah.

I'm excited to go, make some observations next time I'm out there and they'll be in

my back pocket whenever you guys are ready for them.

Allie: I think that's great. And I'm glad that this is coming out so people can start utilizing it and giving back even if they don't, they're not necessarily. Getting the water sampling kits that we're sending them. , yeah, it's, it'll be great. I'm really excited for it. It's, it's the solution to one of those problems I've been seeing within the immense amount of folks that want to participate.

So, yeah, I'm, I'm really excited about that side of things and. Yeah, there's so much we can all do together if we work together and make sure we share our, share our data and information and try to make impact together.

Devin: Cool. For our, our final segment here, our closing thoughts, we call it the whip finish. How can people get ahold of you guys? How, where can they find you on social media? And, [01:00:00] if you'd like to share any final thoughts, the floor is

Allie: Yeah. So science on the fly, it's science on the fly, scienceonthefly. org. And then Instagram is also signsonthefly. org and sign up for newsletters and we try to send that out monthly. Um, and if you do want to request a sample, feel free to fill out that, that form. Just don't expect an immediate response from me.

Um,

Devin: Allie is busy.

Allie: it's great.

Devin: yeah, it's a good, good problem to have, but.

Allie: Yeah, and we're starting to go to events. So if you ever see a booth, come say hi. We're super friendly and if you ever have questions about or a concern or you need help in figuring out how to build community activism or support, , it's been really fun to learn.

And I love sharing all that knowledge with everyone. So. Yeah, let's work together.

Devin: That's awesome.

Allie: love, I love the name of that for the ending, the whip [01:01:00] finish. That's great.