Mending on the Fly

squadcaster-59dj_1_03-27-2024_101340
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Devin: [00:00:00] Record so it is recording now. Let me just get a couple seconds of silence for the post edit

and that should be good. Um, let me make sure everything is functioning. Um,

looks like we're all good. No issues. And, um, cool. Well, um, why don't we just go ahead and, uh, Let me just get my questions pulled up because I had to restart the computer. Um, and I have questions and you know, I sent that outline, but it's really, we're just going to see where the conversation goes and we kind of have that stuff to fall

Hans: Let's stay flexible,

like in the army.

Devin: yeah, [00:01:00] yes, yeah. Like we say in the Marines is Semper Gumby, always flexible. Yeah. Um, right, cool. So, um, let me just kick it off with your intro and we'll go from there.

Hans: okay.

Devin: Today on Mending on the Fly, we have the extraordinary Hans van Klinken, a revered figure in fly fishing and fly tying. Hans retired in 2012 after a distinguished 35 year career in the Royal Dutch Army, ultimately serving as the commander of the Royal Gunnery School. In his retirement, Hans dedicated his life to his passions, fly fishing, fly tying, and sharing his vast knowledge through workshops, lectures, and writing.

Hans is devoted to educating the next generation, combining his love for the outdoors with a commitment to conservation and the art of fly fishing. From the River Dommel [00:02:00] to the vast wilderness of Scandinavia, Hans has traveled extensively developing innovative fly patterns and techniques, particularly the renowned Klinkhamer special.

His journey from dry fly purist to recognizing the value of nymphs, streamers, and emergers illustrates a profound evolution in fly fishing. As we celebrate the upcoming 40th birthday of the Klinkhammer, join us in exploring the depth of Hans contributions to the world of fly fishing, his philosophy on conservation, and the future of this beloved sport.

Hans, thanks so much for being here.

Hans: It's my pleasure. It's a big pleasure.

Devin: Great. Well, I, I'm, I'm really glad you're here and, and to the listeners out there, it is, uh, 5 AM here on the East Coast. So, apologies for any, uh, uh, brain malfunctions that I may encounter along the way. I've got some hot tea and I'm ready to go. [00:03:00] Um, but, uh, Hans, uh, If you would, please just give us, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Give us a little background and, uh, tell us how you found fly

Hans: Well, it's, it's actually, uh, uh, it's a big story, but I tried to, to, to, to

hold in myself a little bit. Um, well, actually, actually everything

started, uh, with fishing at the age of six years old. I was six years old. I went fishing with my father and there was one, uh,

one thing happened right away. I figured out my father was very, very, very competitive. And I, I beat him by quite a few fish. So he only went fishing with me once. And, uh, and, uh, that, that, yeah, as a six year old, and then, [00:04:00] then what happened was, uh, we, we traveled to Austria and, and, uh, and the first time we went to Norway, uh, happened when I was nine years old. And that was the second time I faced my with my father. We rented a house at the, uh, close to the, the, the river Mandal in, in, in the south of Norway. And we were fishing with a spoon, you know, with a spinner. And I was nine years old, imagine this, and I hooked a big salmon, about nine kilos. And, and my father couldn't help me, because in the same time, I hooked my fish. He hooked, he hooked also his salmon. So I had, I had to land and I had to land that fish and play that fish all by myself at the age of nine years old. So you can imagine what

Devin: Okay. [00:05:00] Yeah. And for my American listeners, that's a 20 pound salmon.

Hans: Yeah. It's a big, it's a big fish.

Devin: That's a real big fish.

Hans: And, uh, and, uh, so, so I was hooked right away. And, uh, and, uh, so so we went to, my father had a central heating business and I, I, uh, I, I actually raised in a family where we hardly didn't do anything with Christmas, with, uh, with St. Nicholas, with, uh, with birthday. We got a little present with, with, with birthdays or something. But we all agree

that all the energy and the money went to holidays. So

my father went to one, one month, one and a half month holiday every year in the summer, because central heating business is very slow in the summer. And

that was. A holy thing for us, [00:06:00] especially for my mom, because she was very strong level of diabetes. And, uh, and, uh, she, she died actually at age 61 and, uh, because of the diabetes. But she always was pushing us for holiday, holiday. And we were very flexible in our family and we could choose where to go. And once we went to Norway, we went to Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark and that, that kind of countries because it was so quiet. And it was so peaceful, you know, so, so that's actually when it started. And then, uh, at the age of 15, I went all the years before I went to Norway from nine to 15. I asked my, my parents a really big question. And this is quite amazing because what I wanted to do, they had a house in the South of Norway and they rent the second house in the, in the, in [00:07:00] the, in the middle of Norway at the coast. So. I asked them if it's possible for me to travel by myself all the way from the south of Norway to the middle of Norway, and I took two weeks for it. And at first they were very skeptical. But then they say, okay. Um, so I did it. That was my first ever holiday in Norway at the age of 15. And it was such a success that, uh, after when I was 16, I went all by myself. In the same way, so

Devin: Oh, that's

Hans: yeah, and I worked in the,

I worked a whole year in my father's business and, uh, and, uh, I hardly get any money in the weekend, so I couldn't spend it anyway. It was too hard work, but then when the holiday came, imagine I was 16 years old. And he gave me 2000 guilders, Dutch [00:08:00] guilders at that time, which was a lot of money for somebody from 16 years old. And then he said,

Devin: Yeah.

Hans: you come back when the money is gone. And that was the big,

that was the biggest mistake in his life.

Devin: right.

Hans: after three months I came back and I still had 1500.

Devin: He's like, how'd you do it?

Hans: Well, if you, well, if you travel all by yourself alone, everybody's taking care of you. Yeah,

Devin: That's right, you're a kid.

Hans: you know, I was 16 and I, I had all kinds of tricks I found by accident.

Like, for example, in my backpack, there was, there was a fishing rod sticking out. So all the fishermen, Uh, I didn't even have to, to hold up my, my, my tongue for hitchhiking because all the fishermen, they saw me walking next to the road, they stopped and now one of the fishermen said, well, you are a fly [00:09:00] fisherman, right?

When we talk and he discussed, he said, you're a fly fisherman, right? What you should do is you turn your rod. So the fly reel is visible. And then more people will stop.

Devin: It's like an

Hans: Yeah, yeah. And that's what I did. So I was just walking beside the road with my fly rod upside down in my backpack and it was easy. I went all the way up hitchhiking up to the northern part of Norway, which is a long, long distance. Because every,

everybody thinks, uh, Europe is small, but, uh, Scandinavian isn't, it's very, very, very, very big. If you go from, uh, Kristiansand in the South of Norway, all the way into the North and then back to Helsinki, it's 10, 000 kilometers.

Devin: Yeah, I mean, well, they're, they're, they're, you know, it's north south.

Hans: It's, it's, it's just, it's

just a half

Devin: you, if you try to go,

Hans: And I, I, I,

Devin: If [00:10:00] you try to go east west, it's a quick trip, but yeah, north

Hans: And then you go around all the fjords and things like that. So. I made that trip

three times by car and the first time was, I was, I think I was, uh, I was in my early twenties or so, but I make it three times and it, it, it is absolutely the most amazing and most beautiful trip you can make in Europe. If you like silence

and nature and And, uh, and, um, and fishing and wildlife, things like that. Well, I,

Devin: 40 and I, I'm still gonna ask my mom for permission to, to go take that trip. That sounds incredible. I'll just, I'll just keep my fly rod sticking

Hans: well, I was very, very independent because my mom was very ill and I had to take care, uh, about my little sisters at very young age. And, you know, uh, I was, I remember when, when, uh, when my first oldest memories was when I was. Five, [00:11:00] six years old, I was standing on the chair doing the dishes because my mom was too ill to do it, you know,

so, so I, I actually raised my, my sisters quite, quite a bit in, in, in the early days when, but only when my mom was, uh, was, uh, was, uh, ill, you know, because she couldn't do anything then. So that's why I

Devin: So

Hans: very

Devin: um, So you were the,

Hans: Yeah, I was the oldest of three. I have

two sisters. And, uh, and, uh, uh, yeah, we, I had, I had for myself, when I look back, I had one of the best childhood imaginable. Uh, you know, I get so many money for the holidays. I, I could

travel everywhere, uh, but that time it was mainly in Europe because flying was not, uh, well, it was too expensive in

the, in the, those years. Right, So, so my whole life from age six up to now, it's [00:12:00] actually merged, uh, merged with fly with, with fishing. And then since age 15, it's merged with fly fishing. Uh, I stopped, I stopped, uh, fishing with, with, with the spoons and with floats. And I only go. With the fly, right?

Devin: Yeah. Well, so, at what age did you join the Royal

Hans: Well, that's another story

Devin: Alright, let's hear it.

Hans: my, my father was a very clever and I worked in, at that time I worked in his company and we had a subscription army. Right. So, so, uh, every, every few months I, my father, my parents got the letter. It's actually, it was a letter to me, but they open it. And it was from the, uh,

from the army.

And it said, I have to go into the army. So then my wife, my father wrote them back. Well, I cannot miss [00:13:00] my, my, my boy. You have to help me in the business. And he did that five times without telling me.

Devin: Okay. Smart man.

Hans: then finally, I, uh, they didn't give any, any, uh, Any, uh, they didn't allow it anymore. So, so, uh,

Devin: Mm hmm.

Hans: so I had to go in the army and then I, I remember when I was my first day and that was that day. You have to, to, to tell what you want and why, because it's all a part of education also. So I was able to get an officer or on their officer. Uh, but I didn't want to be an officer, uh, uh, uh, and, uh, and I thought, well, I could be a soldier. That's the easiest way. But then I saw in, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the dining rooms that, [00:14:00] that all the soldiers have to get after their own food. And when you were an under officer. You get served by the soldiers. So I said, well, at least I get my dinner brought to me. Right. So that's, what's the reason I choose for under officer. And then I actually choose, uh, right away to go to, to Germany because the cold war was still on. I got an, uh, I

got a six months education. Uh, and then, uh, I, I, I went to, to Germany with, and the most amazing of this whole education was. We did the education with 18 guys and all 18 of us all went to went to Germany.

Yeah, that was

Devin: formed a good bond

Hans: And what everybody said about the description army in our country, but it's shit and it's this and it's blah, blah, blah. It's not, it was not because the [00:15:00] way we were treated in Germany by this professional military guys was so good that all 18 of us. Went, went as a, I went back to the army as a professional army

Devin: Right, so

Hans: all, we all, we all

Devin: joined

Hans: And that, yeah, 1 reason, 1 reason was, of course, the money was, it was a good money. And the 2nd, the 2nd part was. Uh, you only have to work to, to, to tell 55 years old and then you're, you're, you're retired.

And I said, well, when I, I had worked, I had worked with, with, uh, with the subscription guys, you know, all soldiers. They had to go in the army and they were, they didn't like it. So I said, well, when I can make them feeling good and, and they, and they, they cry when they leave the army, then I did a great, great, great job. [00:16:00] So, and that

would happen. I had five platoons educated at. 39 guys all the time and, and all cried when they, when they left the army at five times. So that was, was really, really, really good time for me. Um,

Devin: Now, where in

Hans: that was, it was,

Devin: uh, kind of

Hans: it was at Camp Seedorf between Hamburg and Bremen. And,

and the reason, and another reason I went there as a professional.

Military was that it's very close to Scandinavia and because when you are in the army and station in abroad, you could buy everything tax free. And my first, my first brand new car was only 6, 000 guilders and it was a speedy car. So I was very fast. Scandinavian and there was no traffic jumps at that time.[00:17:00]

Devin: Right.

Hans: it was, it was fantastic. Uh,

Devin: And so were you fishing? Were you continuing to fly fish

Hans: yeah, I, I was,

Devin: did you kind of take a

Hans: no, no, I, I was, I was, uh, I had after my normal, uh, uh, normal duties as a, so, uh, platoon sergeant, uh, and, and, and, and things like that. I got all, I took all jobs that nobody want, you know, specialized job, like ABC, uh, ABC specialist, you know, atomic, uh, and biological and chemical. Everybody.

Devin: Okay, yeah,

Hans: that.

Devin: yeah.

Hans: well, I loved it because it was special. And, uh, I was, uh, I wanted to change things and I did, you know, because what, what happened in the army, uh, mostly armies [00:18:00] was at that time, they, they train all the gas exercises, like gas, gas, gas, you know, that right. And they, and they always did it. When, when the soldiers were eating

Devin: Right, right. I

Hans: all the time. And I said, well, this is

the first rule I will take off because this doesn't work. It doesn't work. What people are hungry. They need to eat when people were, you know, and, and so what I did was I, I woke them up with gas, gas, gas. You know, just in in 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock in the morning. I make the Gaza law and then they get out and then they and there was nothing and that that was just maybe an hour and then they could have the breakfast and doing the other things. Right? So I changed.

I changed a lot and I got the power also because. What happened actually when I was in [00:19:00] that job, we had an inspection of the knowledge and all the things, and the whole battle, the whole platoon got the, got the very bad, bad note.

Very bad. And I got the highest note on NBC. That ever was given. So I get all my freedom. So I said, this is now I know what to do in the army and I take all the special jobs. And that's what, yeah,

that's what I did. I like special jobs like, uh, like also after that, I went in the, in the, in the, in the heavy weapons systems and things like that.

Devin: Okay, and then so the, the gunnery school, is that for um, uh, mostly like, like infantrymen?

Hans: 50 cal, 25 millimeters, 20 millimeter, uh, uh, rocket launchers and all those stuff that, that is, it's like heavy weapons, right? And with 25 millimeter, uh, [00:20:00] cannon, and I actually came in the army when the 25 millimeter Olicon got introduced. And I got retired when they, they stopped with it. Yeah,

that's it.

So I, it was a 35 years career of the 25 millimeter and the same, like my career. So, that was really good, but I did.

Devin: That's a good, good time to get out

Hans: but, and we, but we did a lot for, uh, like, uh, uh, develop a remote, uh, control systems because when you see, when I

saw all the missions and a lot of people saw the missions, what we wanted, what we really wanted was to sit the gunners on the, on the Panzer right underneath,

Devin: Mm

Hans: and because a lot of those gunners, they standing. Uh, they're standing free and they got, they got all, a lot of them got killed, especially by foreign [00:21:00] countries. And I, so we had a remote control system developed and I was highly developed with that. And, uh, and the missions, the missions, they went and things like that. And, and now I come back to fly fishing again, because when I was on the missions, I always had my fly rod with me. Uh, and I have my fly tying stuff with me, and I can tell you and guarantee you for 1000 percent that my fly tying stuff Prevent me for PTSD. You know, I, what I've seen,

what I've seen in Bosnia is you can, you cannot tell anybody, you know, it's so terrible and you only can discuss it with people who've been there and seen the same things. Uh, but, but, uh, I, I was at quite a lot in, in, in Bosnia on missions. Uh, I, I built up shooting ranges and all the stuff. Um, you know, in one, in one trip. [00:22:00] I have made a long trip and then I had several bullet holes in my, in my car. So imagine that.

Devin: Mm hmm.

Hans: So, so,

Devin: And so going back to the remote control system, just because, uh, I was a Marine infantry officer and, uh, This stuff kind of interests me. But the, so this would allow the, the gunners, um, operating the system to be in a protected space and then operate

Hans: yeah, your gun your gun is solid in, in the, in the system and it can shoot 2 kilometers, you know, and you are fully protected. You shoot with, uh, with, uh. We add the very, very, uh, um, heating sensor, uh, binoculars, all the stuff. Yes. And, and, and, uh, and all kinds of high tech stuff. Uh, so, so that was, uh, that [00:23:00] was really amazing. So, so not so many gunners died from our, our, our army.

Devin: Well, that's a, um, I mean, that's quite it. It seems, you know, in hindsight, technology like that seems so, uh, simple, but, uh, you know, as, as like, as no, it isn't at all. And as, as strategy and tactics evolve, um, it's, uh, it's amazing to see the developments in systems designed to enhance

Hans: Yeah. And you have to have the bosses. Who see the potential of it and the

value if you, if you you know, it depends all on the bosses. Uh, you

know, if they're, if they're not so, so busy with the career, then

then usually they are more into the, uh, the ways with, they're more with the people, right? They're closer to the [00:24:00] people

Devin: Yep.

Hans: they're busy with the careers. They're, uh, I don't say they didn't, they don't give, they, they, they, they don't do anything wrong with, with the soldiers, but, uh, it feels better when, when they can. When, when, when officers are closer to, to the soldiers. And I have the most and the best, uh, cooperation with officers. They were before under officers. Yeah.

Devin: Right, they've gone

Hans: Yeah. They did extra studies, but they were under officers for years, for years. And those were, I could bet work better with them because they were more into, uh, directly to the soldiers and they could sit and smoke a

cigarette with the soldiers. Uh, like that,

you know, so I, uh, yeah,

Devin: Yeah, and I think in the States, we would call them non commissioned officers.

Hans: well, they, they, they,

Devin: know, corporals, sergeants,

Hans: yeah, well, they get, [00:25:00] they get, uh, the highest rank, usually call them now

Devin: Okay, but for the, for

Hans: on their offices.

Devin: when you

Hans: Well, they can go, uh, up, uh, depends, you know, you'd have to do studies. And if you, if

you, if you, uh, uh, if you succeed for your study, you can go into, into the education for officers. You

know, and

Devin: okay. Yeah, we've got

Hans: yeah, one reason, you know, one reason I never went have any thought about to get an officer was I was a few times with the parties for the officers because we were invited because we had won a prize or whatever. And every every all of them, they would all they were standing. You already had the special tables. There were no shares. I said, what the hell? I cannot even sit. I'm so [00:26:00] tired from going back straight from the exercise, uh, joining a party, and I cannot sit.

Devin: are we

Hans: said, so that's what I said to my wife. I said, I never, never, never want to be an officer. I had all those parties and they all standing.

Devin: It's like, just let me sit

Hans: Yeah. well, well, you know, I, and, uh, I have terrible back problems. Uh, for very, very,

very long time. And that actually happened when, uh, I was, I had an exercise in a very, very, uh, forest area, big forest area. In Germany and, uh, and one guy broke, uh, broke his leg very, very, very badly. the, the, the, the the bones stick, stick out and things like that.

So everybody was

so tired. And the

only thing I could do was put that guy on my back and walk down, down like this for a few [00:27:00] kilometers to find the spot where a chopper could land it. And

that damaged my whole, uh, back for very, very early time. But I was really good in camouflage because, you know, uh, if you had, uh, medical problems, you know, they easily drop you out of the army. And what I, what I,

what I was doing was, you know, when we had this sport exercises and things like that, there's always people who are a little bit thicker and fatter and slower. And I always walked with those. And then when, when I got, when I got pain or got tired, I said, Don't walk so fast that you don't get a heart attack.

So please go slow, go slow. And that's, and that's how, that's, that's what I did for years and nobody noticed.

Devin: I love that. Uh, smart man, smart man. Well, and I love what you said about [00:28:00] fly tying and PTSD because, um, obviously in the States, we've got a lot of veterans. Um, I don't suffer from PTSD and, uh, but I know many who do. Um, And you know, that's, that's one of the reasons, one of the many reasons I'm even doing this podcast is just to expose more people to fly fishing.

And we've got organizations like, you know, Project Healing Waters that takes veterans out. Um, but it's interesting to hear you say in hindsight that having your fly tying gear with you at all times is, uh, is something you

Hans: it's all mini, mini, mini, a small rod, you know, telescope rod and a small back drying stuff. But enough to keep you busy for for a while. Right?

Devin: Yeah. And gets you out and, and just kind of

Hans: Yeah. And you know what, when, when guys [00:29:00] went out for mission, because I stay on the camp usually and then and then, uh, Uh, there was a few people were interested in, in, in fly phasing. So I said, when they came back from the mission, I said, okay, we're going to tie a fly and you put all your aggression in that fly, and then you've got to catch fish with it. And, um, and you know, some of those people, they still tying flies and they still go fly fishing. And I, I still have contact with them and none of them got PTSD.

Devin: That's wild. That's wild. Well, and you know that, um, I've said it on other podcasts here, but the, this is my little fly tying station bed here, but I call it my

Hans: Yeah, that's true. It's very, very

Devin: you know, cause it's just, it's very quiet. You can still do something and create, which is cool, but um, your mind is like, just

Hans: yeah, yeah. And that's the same. Like, for example, I had one class. With [00:30:00] autistic kids

tying flies. Well, I mean, this was really, this was my biggest challenge in my, in my classes and workshops because, you know, the kids, the kids, young kids. It's very, very hectic. I mean, you, you, you, you

know that you have young kids now, but, but in,

you know, at first I was set.

Okay. I don't tie flies with kids younger than eight years old. Right. But then, then,

that was that was that then I was in Labrador and there were kids. They were younger. They were from five age five and the kids were

so sad that they couldn't join. So I said, okay, let's try it. And we had a wonderful system.

If you, if you, if you, Go to my website and you, you, you, you see the links and you go to the charity part, you can see the charity part from Canada and, uh, and you see how [00:31:00] young the kids really are and we had a special system because a wonderful lady from, from Canada, she invited young students America and from Canada to do environmental stuff in, in Canada during the summer holidays. You know, and in Canada, there's a long holiday, summer holiday, and kids go often to camps. And then I go to the camps to do some workshops with them, a little bit of fishing,

fly tying. And, and what I did with this, this lady who organized all this was, uh, we We tie flies with the students. You know, I tie flies to the to two or three nights. And then the those girls and you usually were girls. They were they knew which flies are going to tie with the kids. And then I let them help because I cannot. I cannot deal with six young kids. No, no, [00:32:00] I cannot do a

workshop with six kids in the in the age

of six, seven. It's impossible.

Devin: No, they're maniacs.

Hans: you,

Devin: Yeah, I

Hans: You need too much attention for them. So, so what, what

I did was I use this, this, this young girls, you know, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the early twenties, and they're very good with kids because they were tested. Because everything were paid for them and they had actually a free three months holiday. So, so they were very, very keen and they were very intelligent and they were very helpful and really good with kids. And, and, and, and and that's how I, I, I could do it. And, uh, and that's why my kid classes were so big and so intense. And, uh, the only problem was when I left and coming back the next, the kids were crying, but I, when I couldn't come back, the kids were crying because I couldn't

visit them. Right? So, uh, so that was in Canada and, [00:33:00] and in Canada, North America, probably those, those kids are much closer to nature than here in Europe.

Devin: Why do

Hans: Yeah. Well, they have still the wildlife. They have still the nature. We have a mostly farm farming and, uh, and and it's too crowded here. You know, it's, it's our country is, it's just

like a big city. 18 million people. And it's only 200 by 300 kilometers. So, so that that's, yeah, it's very, very tough. And we hardly have any kids in fly fishing clubs. Well,

Devin: Really?

Hans: I was fishing. Last week I was fishing on a Wednesday afternoon. Wednesday's afternoon all the kids are free from school. When I was,

when I was a school, school kid, the whole rivers were full with young kids fishing

Devin: Just.

Hans: and now I

[00:34:00] didn't see any. They're all playing Nintendo or PlayStation or with an iPad or iPhone. I don't know what they're doing, but nothing with, with, with nature, wildlife, environment. Yeah, you know, it's really, it's really sad and I really worried a lot about the young generation, but that's why I, for example, I went, uh, I have something with Bosnia because I was, I was about 20 times in Bosnia and, uh, during, during

the war, uh, it's just short trips, you know, I built up shooting ranges and things like that. Uh, I think the longest one was eight weeks or something. Uh, but I always was very, the kids, you know, that there was something with the kids and me there and I, I always, so when the wall was over, I went to Bosnia and I did the biggest fly tying class with kids, I think, ever [00:35:00] organized, we had 89

kids and all tie flies in a weekend, every single one

of them tied flies.

Yeah, yeah, that was, it was, you can see it all on my website, but it was, it was, you know, and, and what happened was the first year I was on the school and a friend of mine, um, who I, who helped me with the translation, but you didn't know, you didn't need to translate. If I even told it in Dutch, the kids would understand what I mean. It was,

Devin: Right,

Hans: so amazing. And then someday tried to speak English and. And it was unbelievable what they all learned from their, their phone, you know, and, and, and, you know, and, you know, it's what three seconds later, I already was on Facebook, you know, like, [00:36:00] I,

I not even didn't know what Facebook was at that time.

Right. It

was amazing. And then we, we, I, we did the lessons on the school. I did a lecture, so they didn't have to follow the lessons, but they could listen to my stories and my lecture. And we, uh, what I tried to learn then was, uh, everything about the environment. There was, there was one species of fish, fish species called the soft mouth trout. It's one of the most, most endangered fish species in the world. It only exists in

five river systems and,

one, one system. It's only 150 meter or 11 or something.

Devin: Oh.

Hans: the people there are so poor and they're hungry and they don't, they don't care what they catch. They think it's a trout and they don't know what's a soft mouth trout.

So that's what I tried to explain the kids that they actually were sitting and living on a gold [00:37:00] mine. I mean, I always, I always taught them what you should learn is to rip off the rich people. Yeah, because they want to pay for your waters. They want to pay for exclusive fishing. So the more exclusive you make it. So the more your money you make, you know, and that's what I try to help them. And, and so I, I had my classes. I was fishing with them and the pictures are absolutely amazing. And, and, uh, and, and then I remember when I went home and we stopped near the school where I did the lectures and we, we did a clack song to, to, to, you know, remember all kids run out. You know, there was no teacher who was able to keep them inside and they ran out and they crying and they hugged me and there were even two, two, two, uh, Muslim girls, you know, and, and, and, and even the Muslim girls, they hugged me, I put, I [00:38:00] put my arm and put them around them, you know, said, Oh my God, you know, so, but nothing happened, you know, it was so friendly and it was so, cool. That was all, that was only passion. And, and, and, and, and I

had tears in my eyes. You, the tears rolling over my sheik when I had to say goodbye

Devin: I believe, I, There we go.

Hans: yeah,

Devin: I mean, there's something about, uh, a sport like this that is, it's, the fly fishing and fly tying can be complicated, but it can also be incredibly simple, and, um, it, it's, it can make it, and it's, it's something that anyone in the world can do, uh, you know, you, you, it, it's so, uh, There's no cultural

Hans: yeah,

Devin: There's no language boundaries. Um, I mean, all you need is, uh, a rod, some

Hans: yeah, yeah,

Devin: some water and a fish. And, [00:39:00]

Hans: I remember when I was 20 years old, I came back from the northern, the northern part, the northern tip of Norway, where I had caught probably 50 salmon and, and maybe, uh, the same, the same amount. Of, uh, of, uh, grills. And quite a double number of char, uh, because I stay there quite for a while.

I just put the piece in my, in my book about it also. And, um, when I came back and I came in the real world of normal world again, and I told people. Listen, I was so happy I caught salmon and sea trout on a dry flat and all those people, some in the age I'm now, in the, in the 60s or in the early 70s, and they said, well, you cannot catch a salmon or a sea trout on a dry flat. It's impossible. You are a liar. [00:40:00] So what, what I did was I didn't say anything, but I got a little bit in shock. I hardly wrote about Atlantic salmon anymore. I hardly talk about Atlantic salmon anymore, but I went completely my own way. And, and till 1988, actually not much happened, but every year I fished more. For Atlantic salmon, then for grayling. So

everybody thinks I'm the grayling junkie in Europe and all those stuff. But every year I went on holiday, I always also fished for salmon, Atlantic salmon, mainly with dry flies. So, so, so, so, so when, when they say I'm a liar and it couldn't be done, I said, I go, I went completely my own way. And that was the best thing that happened to me because I was like a [00:41:00] loner. Um, and what I did was I, I put back salmon, seven kilos salmon. I put them back and and they, they were thinking I was a lunatic because catch and release in the eighties. No way.

And not so in Scandinavian either. And, and, but I make history in 1988 and, and this is all published in a big newspaper.

The radio was there, the television was there, and that happened in i a after in, in Norway on, on the Ian Peninsula. And I wanted to fish a place I couldn't fish because there was a always too busy, it was like a lottery. And the chance to get the ticket. Or a license there was very, very, very, uh, small, but it was 30 degrees and there was no fish caught, but I was used to fish [00:42:00] in hot conditions. Because that's the time that the salmon is easier to catch with dry flies also. And, uh,

Devin: They're coming

Hans: well, they, they, they, they, when the water is too hot, then they stay down and you see the white mouth and they try to survive on the bottom. But that's why I don't fish it. But when, when it's hot and the water is still cool, then then it's no problem at all.

And, uh, so what happened, I could get the license at five At 5 p. m. and I had to stop fishing at 11 p. m. I caught 18 salmon, the biggest one was seven kilo and I even lost a bigger one. And I had about 200 or 300 witnesses because, there was going on, they ring each other, not by cell phones, but by ordinary phones.

It was crazy. The news that was [00:43:00] television, that was radio station. And the, the, the, the, within a couple of hours, the whole area was packed with people. And they could walk everywhere because it was so low water. That everybody could stand

behind me. I could cast anymore and I had to leave at 11 o'clock at night. And then, then, uh, well, there was one journalist who saw that. He said, this is absolutely dry fly history. This is never seen before. And it was, I was together with a Finnish guy and we both using dry flies. I used my clink armor and he using a bomber and we caught so many fish. And nobody could believe it. And this was really history. And that gives me a really big, big push. And that's how I got involved in the dry fly at salmon, uh, Atlantic salmon world in, in, in, in America and Canada, because that's in [00:44:00] Maine and in, in, in Atlantic Canada, it's very, very, very popular to fish with dry flies on Atlantic salmon.

So that's how I. I got befriended with Lee Wolf, with, uh, with, uh, uh, Warren Duncan, with Len Rich, with, with all big famous,

Devin: How, I actually just got Lee Wolfe's book, uh, at the, at the Maryland fly fishing show. Um, I saw his Trout on a Fly, uh, sitting there. Um, it's the first edition, first print. Um, so that's

Hans: it's a very, very, very small world. And when I, I wrote my first letter to Lee Wolf in the 80s. Um, I, I put a handful, uh, Klinkhammers inside, you know, about maybe 10 or something. And I explained a little bit how I was fishing with my Klinkhammer for Atlantic salmon in Norway. [00:45:00] Uh, I didn't, I, I expected he wouldn't reply, you know, he was so big compared to me.

I, I was just, I was just a rookie, right? But he wrote me back. He sent me books. He sent me videos. He sent me his, his, uh, special power shoot, uh, stonefly, uh, for what he used for Atlantic salmon. Uh, it was even patan. He had a patent patan for it. And we had highly, uh, uh, hightech discussion on fishing Atlantic salmon all the time. And what, what, when he died after, when he died with his plane crash. It took me a few years and I was thinking and thinking and then I said what I want to do is I want to fish in the footsteps of Lee and that that took me 10 years, 10 [00:46:00] holidays in a row summer holidays in a row in Newfoundland, Newfoundland and Labrador to fish in all the rivers where Lee Wolf were fishing also.

And, uh, so I, I really fished in the footsteps of Lee Wolf, um, and, uh, but

yeah, and I have really good, good, good people in the US, uh, that, that, that helped me and pushed me, uh, uh, give me materials, you know, in the, in the 1980s. When, when I designed my Klinghammer and I went to the US, uh, they never had seen my, uh, my, uh, uh, my tech technique to tie off the parachute, the use of spiderweb for, for using, uh, tying off a parachute fly and things like that. So I did, I did quite a few different techniques. And they were so special that when I was, uh, I had a visit to Jack Dennis. Workshop and we had a chat during [00:47:00] lunchtime. Uh, Jax told me, can you, can you show me a few of your techniques in the after lunch? I said, no problem. So I did the whole, uh, afternoon session and everybody was amazed because it worked, it worked completely different techniques.

Uh, and, and, you know,

I, I was in the, when I was in America, I mean, the first time I remember it's like ping pong. If you come from Europe and you've never been in in America, I mean, this is what's in the 80s. It's like you're watching ping pong, right? This big cars, this everything is big and you couldn't believe the food

that people order like this.

I couldn't believe it. And, you know, I was I was in the the Catskill area. I was in the museum. I donated flies. I was in the Delaware and the and the Beaverkill and the. Yellow River, I call it, uh, famous, uh, [00:48:00] famous river also, um, and, uh, I didn't, I didn't catch a fish because it was in November. But, uh, but, uh, it was, uh, it was a part of the experience, you know, um, I remember, uh, you know, I was so deeply involved in developing of my own flies that I not as, as one of the few, I didn't got in the spell of the, the Catskill flies. You know, because a Catskill fly is not really, really the best fly to use for grayling. And I was so deeply involved with grayling that the trout actually was a, was a bonus. Trout was just a bonus for me. I, I fished either Atlantic salmon or sea trout. Grayling and, uh, whitefish because whitefish especially is very hard to catch on dry flies. So, so I like that and I was really specialized on grayling [00:49:00] fishing and usually I want for the big ones. And, and, uh,

Devin: sorry, going back to when you were six and you caught that first, that first salmon. Was that

Hans: no, that wasn't a spoon. I was,

I

Devin: Oh, right, right. Okay.

Hans: old. That was,

Devin: Or nine. Right. Okay.

Hans: and it was on the spoon, uh,

you know, the spitter and, uh, and that was, you, you, it was amazing and I, I, landed, I landed,

the fish, but at that time I didn't release the fish because we got, you

Devin: had a nice meal.

Hans: eat it, right? That was

plenty of

Devin: Um tell, so you've mentioned the Klinkhammer uh a few times. For those that don't know, About the Klinkhammer. Can you tell us a little bit about the development there and what that fly means

Hans: well, well, the point was, um, [00:50:00] I, I, uh, When I had caught that grayling and, and I collected the, the, the insect in the stomach, those insects that were really big caddis lava. And I said, and so I, I was getting all my hooks and the biggest book I had was the K, K to be hook or something from the Yorkshire.

That's

Devin: And, and sorry, just, just so the listeners

Hans: sorry, six,

Devin: cause we started talking about it. So before we, yeah, but before we started recording, you had mentioned that you caught this fish and you, you cut it open and started looking at the stomach.

Hans: the stomach.

So, so then I had collected this insect and what I tried and they all were, when they got out of the stomach, they all were curved.

So then I, then I, uh, I, I put, uh, uh, uh, [00:51:00] uh, hooks beside them to see how big hook that insect would fit and I would tie the insect on that one. So, so I was already deeply involved in parachute flies. I already had discovered that parachute parachute flies caught much more fish than ordinary shoulder hacker or colon hacker flies, right flies, right? So, so I caught a lot of fish with them, but, uh, when I used, uh, use the parachute flies, I caught 20, 30 times more fish and my, my, my ideas and my, my whole. Fly fishing strategy is based on the facts. So, so when I catch a lot of fish, it proves me I'm right. When I don't catch anything with a special technique or fly, I said, this is shit. I don't, I don't even continue with that. I just give it it's, it's a way I don't

put [00:52:00] any effort in it. So I wouldn't everything. What was, what was, uh, going well and proved by my catches, you know, and, and the trick actually was what I did in, in Scandinavia, because I was in the military, I have my topographic maps. I have my compass. I have my knowledge about the nature and the wilderness and everything. I search for connection rivers between the lakes. And usually in a

three hour walk from the road, and that were the places nobody for fishing. And if I went, went early, like in June, in the beginning of June, the, the, the grayling were still in those rivers, and it came out, out of the lakes for spawning because they, they spawn in May, June, know, depending when the ice leaves the water.

[00:53:00] And, uh,

and, uh, so a lot of those big grayling were still in those rivers and I discovered that very early stage of my life. And so that's why I camped out at this rivers, fished there for a couple of days, and then went to the, to the other spots and that this were all hotspots. Well, some of them were nothing.

There were no face. So I said, okay, no effort in this one. And I went to another spot. So I was walking like crazy, swimming like crazy. I have, uh, it's a pity. Nobody filmed me when I, when I get put all my clothes and stuff in my, in a, in a, in my tent. You know, like in the army and swim across,

Devin: Right?

Hans: the river because at the other side, there was a river running into it and I couldn't. So I went upstream that river and that's how I

Devin: Oh, that's awesome. What an adventure.

Hans: yeah. But so [00:54:00] I had so many stories and so many. Holidays and so many great experiences that that's why I, uh, yeah, I can tell, uh, this, this anecdotes and this, this tales and with, with a lot of passion, because when I start to tell it and you know, you see it, I mean, I get, I get really passionate, enthusiastic, uh, and it's because it's

passion, you know, it's nothing to do with catching fish or being. I'm not a good caster because my casting is really and uh, and uh, and uh, that's why,

Devin: It makes me It makes me feel good to

Hans: yeah, well,

Devin: mine is

Hans: well, that's why I always said, I always go when, when I see, see those young kids, I always go to the, to the worst caster and I said, yes, I said, I cannot cast, you know, you and I can't catch fish, right? So, and uh, and that, that, that's, you know, it's the [00:55:00] same like nowadays, Facebook fly tires. It's like a huge. I mean, it's just my feeling. You know, it's it looks like a huge competition. Who can tie the most beautiful fly

Devin: Right.

Hans: right? And one is

nicer than the other one. And they're using resins and they're using superglue.

Well, superglue is forbidden in kid classes. By law, and it's dangerous. I mean, if you, if you, I have, I had once, uh, a bottle of, uh, superglue felt, uh, felt and it drips out, right? It was very liquid

and got on, uh, uh, uh, uh, polio. There was, there's a chemical reaction, almost as, as dangerous as nerve gas. So

I fainted. Because of the gas. So super glue [00:56:00] is extremely, extremely dangerous. So I never use it with kids and the same with reasons because I the first thing I do is in spoil the fly tying because people only only make the flies nicer with it and they're really beautiful.

I, I have nothing with that. If you make art flies, but not talk, not

talk, not with me about fishing flies and you're using super glue Superglue, and you're using, uh, resins with the lamps like that. Because

Devin: yeah.

Hans: I don't, I don't like it. And it destroyed a lot of the basic fly tying skills and my big, biggest worries. And that's what I also wrote in my book is about the future is that maybe in a few years, the people that glue the fish, the flies on the hook, you know, because, uh, I, I, I want to tie, you know, and there's a problem with natural materials, right? [00:57:00] Because customs and.

Devin: Yeah. Well, and, and, and not to mention just the, um, environmental impact, like even, even, uh, like floating, you know, I had a floating for a while that I was using and it's like, it's got all sorts of

Hans: no, no, no,

Devin: I don't know what they are,

Hans: no. Uh, I hear that when, when I hear, I listened to the podcast with you and Ann about your float. I,

Devin: Oh, yeah.

Hans: about your float then I said, well, this is an

American. They don't know that the best float in the world comes from the U. S. made by FlyRite and the name is DeliWax. You can use it as a lip

balm. I use it as lip balm. It's not poison.

works on the fly, and it's specially made for polio on wings and for polio on bodies. That's why I use it

so much. And you can do your leader with it, you can do your tippet with it, you can do your fly line with it, and you can, and you can do your lips with it. And there's [00:58:00] no

poison at all in it.

Devin: Perfect. Then I'm getting

Hans: wax. That's, that's absolutely stunning.

Devin: Now I

Hans: Now, you know.

that's why I was remember it because I said, what the hell

he's talking about the floated with, there was one in the, in the

eighties called, uh, Pema Float. It's not a float, float

with o uh, a, but float with ot. A

and, and the point is that it was, uh, developed in England and that was so poison it was taken off the market. Uh, because you could get cancer from it, but that was the,

Devin: Well, it's like I was using, I was using

Hans: yeah, yeah, yeah, that's

Devin: then my fly dropped. It, it like dropped in the water and, and I could see the, I could see the residue just on the surface of the water. Like, it was like an oil spill. You know, I was like, I got to stop using

Hans: That's, that's

Devin: and uh,

Hans: all. Mostly [00:59:00] of them, most of them are poisoned.

Devin: Okay. So, um, you also started a nonprofit, uh, in Scandinavia. Is

Hans: I, I did my guiding all for free in Scandinavian, mainly for friends or sometimes for groups. Uh, and when I let them pay, sometimes I let them pay, but it, it, yeah. But then the money goes to charity. It's

the same when I do my workshops. It's usually for free. Uh, uh, unless, uh, my expenses have to be paid, you know, sometimes

is no other reason as doing a workshop to get your expenses paid.

But, but, but when I do a workshop for money, it's, it's mainly, uh, the money goes to charity for cancer research

And, uh, And things like that. [01:00:00]

Devin: so what, um, like what started that, what was the thought

Hans: Uh, well, actually,

Devin: okay, I'm going to start at, you know, like, like what, what prompted you to

Hans: well, that happened, Espes, with, uh, this is one of the most beautiful ladies. From Canada, I know it's called Bob Gensh, Bob Gensh, and she owns Tuckermore Lodge in the northern tip and the northern point of the northern tip of the Great Northern Peninsula, Newfoundland, and Bob is such a good person. Now and then she invited, uh, women, uh, to fish, to come over to her lodge for fishing, uh, and they, they, it were all, it was, there were all women who were a member of the cast for recovery, some with breast amputations and, and, and, and, you know, there's nothing better for women [01:01:00] who had breast amputations To to do this casting and to take away

the phantom pains and everything. So I was when

I saw that and Bob pay all their expenses.

Devin: Yeah. Well, actually my, my first episode was

Hans: Yeah, yeah, but, but, but, yeah, but, but she is just a lot shomer, right?

From took a more large in the north, in the north of Newfoundland. And when I saw her doing so much for those people, I said, well, I have to do more. And then I started to do, uh, uh, for, for kid, kid, kitty clowns or whatever, you know, for, for people who do, uh, make a clown and go and help.

Yeah. Uh, kids in the hospital. Uh, so

Devin: Yeah.

Hans: clowns and, uh, and I, I, I, I, I, I raised some money for them and for, for cancer, for diabetes, for kidney. And my wife worked in [01:02:00] hospital. She's just, uh, for a long time and she's always, uh, spending also a lot of money for those, uh, charities, right?

Devin: Yeah.

Hans: so that, that.

Devin: That's a great That's what

Hans: that was actually what triggered triggered me more. I already, I started my classes in, uh, the classes started in the 1980s in 1982 when I was stationary in, uh, in Germany. And, and, uh, that's where I did my first lecture and my first workshops and, uh, uh, and then when the Klingheimer came in 1984. Uh, everything goes like, uh, Wildfire.

Well, faster than a wildfire because, uh, big promotions from the U. S. And, uh, Uh, from the UK and, uh, uh, [01:03:00] people, people who, who fished with me and I show them how to catch a fish with a size 10 hook fly huge two centimeter fly while they normally using size 24.

Devin: The little

Hans: Well, well, you see, because the problem with grayling in all over Europe is in every book written before, uh, 1980, uh, or at least before I wrote my stories, is that you have to use small,

Devin: Which is coming out

Hans: yeah, you have to use small flies for grayling.

Everybody's, in all the books standing, small flies for grayling. Well, in Scandinavia, it's the opposite. When I, when I had a place at the river, I say, oh, that's footprints. So I start walking, walking, walking to the riverbank until all footprints are gone. And then I start fishing [01:04:00] with the biggest fly I have in my fly box. That's usually a size four or six. Yeah.

Well, yeah, well, everybody said that. Everybody said that. And I amazed the whole world. When I show that, how I do it in real, when I took people with me. So, what happened is, when there's, when, when, when you are in, in very high up in, in Scandinavia, and you have this small, tiny little creeks and brooks, there can be really 50 plus centimeter grayling in there. And they love to come up for that big stick. They don't want to take all the effort for a tiny little thing. So,

so, so that happened. Now, what the mistake, what most people do, they start with a size 16 or a size 14. Well, that's the, that's, that's the most common mistake most people do, because when you use a size 16 or 14 [01:05:00] Klinghammer,

you catch a lot of fish. Everybody thinks this is a Rikka fly, because they catch so much fish. But, um, they can be small. And, and, you know, when I, when I pass those people and they catch, how do you, how are you doing? Oh, I got 30, 40 fish. What a good fly, blah, blah, blah. And then I went further, further, maybe five, six miles. And then, and then I see a place where there's nobody fish. And then after a couple of hours, I came back and the guys are still standing on the same spot, and they're still fishing what I call the fish the pool that keep catching, catch,

catching, and then the next day and the next week, nobody catch fish anymore. So, so, but they, they, they, they, they, they see this number as something so special because it never happened before.

Right. And then I came back and I had only five fish. [01:06:00] After a couple of hours, but my smallest was 50 plus and you know, that's my way of fishing. And I don't care if I, if I, if I, if I catch a lot, but I, I don't like it to catch small fish, especially because I use big hoops. And, and, you know, when, when, when I,

when I set the hook that the point of the hook coming out of his eye.

Devin: Yeah,

Hans: You know, and, and,

and, okay, with small fly, you don't have that. But, uh, but the big, big, the big hook, usually the small, small fish don't go, don't, don't come up for it. So that's why my

strategy is I fish with big flies. And, and, you know, when I went, when I went to Malaysia. Get more experience there. Uh, and we had, I was very privileged to fish waters where we're a monster Paco [01:07:00] or snake head or whatever fish in it.

Uh, Sultan fish or Subaru, uh, jungle perch and that kind of fish. And they take really monster dry fly and, uh, and, uh, so, so when, when I start to use my size two and one Klinkhammer, nobody, nobody,

Devin: a

Hans: yeah, that's, well, this is hooks nobody have because they, they are given to me for my birthday many, many years ago by Alan Brambley because I, uh, because I said, I want to

try a bigger hook. And he gave, he gave 1000 of them each size, so I still have a few left because I'm very, very careful with them. And, and, uh, and so I, I use them and I catch, I catch a 20 kilo paku. I mean, this is a piranha eating nuts [01:08:00] and I cut with a dry fly, I mean, 20 kilo paku. And, and, and I got, it's amazing, I was in South Africa and I was catching catfish with a size one Klingkamer, with a size six Klingkamer, because

nobody does that kind of things. And, And,

there's a, there's a lot to learn for course fish. And because in Holland, we have no native trout and grayling, only a few rivers, very, very small population of wild fish. Um, uh, and, uh, but we have a fish called the I'd ever heard about I'd or, or if it's, it's,

Devin: No, no, no, I

Hans: a, it's a, it's a course fish and they have a very big mouth. So they, they take very big. Worms and rubs and then [01:09:00] we call it, uh, uh,

Woolybuggers, everything. So,

but they take very big dry flies too, right? so so that's,

that's, that's what, uh, what, uh, what is my, my school learning to use big flies. For fish with big mouths.

Devin: And that's, uh, and that primarily

Hans: Well, that's fresh water. Yeah. you I think you have some

similar fish like shrimp. Shrimp is the same. Sharp

is the same. You have that.

You have them in the, in the U S because I caught up. I caught shop in the, in the U S. I

Devin: Okay.

Hans: was fishing in the river there, a tiny little river, and I only got shoved. I said, what the hell? There's no trout here.

Devin: So what is in your mind? So you are a bit of a, I mean, you're a legend

Hans: Well, that's what other people tell.

Devin: you you, you're gonna, [01:10:00] you're, you'll deny it cause you're a. Just a genuinely nice, humble guy. But, uh, I consider you, especially with the clink hammer, a bit of a fly tying wizard. Um, what is, what is so special about the clink

Hans: Well, it's just, I think the choice of materials and of course the curved hook,

Devin: Mm-Hmm

Hans: the curved hook that, you know, when I discovered that parachute fly do a lot better than, than the shoulder hackle flies are called hackle flies. Uh, Because the grayling, you know, the grayling comes up with a very high speed, then they turn, they can turn upside down, and then they,

Devin: mm-Hmm.

Hans: with their mouth, they just push the fly away. And I discovered this when we did the research in Canada, in, in, in Wolf Lake, in, in Yukon, and we make 10 hours of, uh, underwater [01:11:00] moving. And we only

saw, uh, a grayling taking the fly twice. Because the, the, the film filmer, or you call it the, the cameraman, he had put

his, his shots on 24 shots a second. And that was

far too slow to, to capture the grayling for taking the fly.

So the settings of the,

Devin: Cause that's how fast

Hans: set should be at least 80 shots a second or so, because we couldn't see it.

It was all blur. And, and then I

knew how fast grayling came up and why they push away. So I was testing, uh, parachute flies and shoulder hacker flies like, uh, like, um, a humpy or, or, or whatever. Uh, and, and, and they, they push away those, those, uh, much easier, you know? Um, and, and I, I saw [01:12:00] that in the eighties when I fish for grayling very close to my, uh, in front of me three meters. And I saw the fly

pushing away by the grayling. So that's a, that's something wrong. And I, I described this all in my book because that's, that's actually. the thought behind, behind the flies, right?

So that's how I came finally to, to, that's why I finally came to parachute flies. And then the first thing what I discovered was that I start to catch a lot more fish. Uh, then when I, when I make this curved hook, again, the same happened. I started to catch a lot more fish than normal parachute flies already. And when, when I, When I, when I was giving quite a bunch of, uh, of Klingkammers to Oliver Edwards, you probably heard about him. He died last year.

Devin: hmm.

Hans: and, uh, he was one of the most gentle and best fly tires in Europe [01:13:00] for realistic, uh, fishing flies. And I remember his story when he was sitting in the bath. in the bar job and was testing the, it was imitating the grayling, how they

push up. And he said, well, Hans, you cannot push this Klinkhammer up. It always. And he said, I got 10 fish out of 10. It never happened. And I'm much older than you are, you know, so, so, so, so that that's, that's, that's the secret. And, you know, another point is if you are too late with setting the hoop, there's a big chance the fish is still off. Uh, it's, it's a really

good fly because of the big white wing or other color you, you choose. For kids and for women to see in on the surface. I designed this

big wing just because my eyesight on distance was not very good. And I [01:14:00] really

started to face the broken water because I couldn't cast. Everybody was everybody was standing and

showing off. On those most beautiful spots with the most quiet water where you saw all the rises. That's where all the

fishermen were. And I said, well, I don't go stand between them with my terrible cast and they will casting 2528 meters. when I do, when I

try to cast as far as possible. And if I land on the water and the grayling takes the fly, I always rip off my fly because the no good. So, so I don't like that. So, so I said, well, I will I go to the to the broken water to the strong currents to the rapids and it took me quite quite some time. But then I finally figure out there's a lot of fish in those rapids. And there's nobody

who knows better than the Finnish, [01:15:00] uh, from Finland, the Finnish fly fisherman,

because the Finnish fly fisherman, all fish rapids. I mean, and when I talk about rapids, I'm talking about water that every central European guy will pass. There's no fish, it's too strong.

No, it's too, it's, there's no fish there, but in, in Finland, this, these rapids are between the lakes. They're the, they're the connections between the lakes and it's all rapids

Devin: and that's where

Hans: that's what is spawning.

and that's where all the, the, the small fish are and that's where all the big trout come and that's why you have the

monster trout, uh, uh, in the, in the rapids of Finland.

And that's why I was there last year with the goal to catch a monster trout in the rapids. I did,

Devin: So how did the Klinkhammer become such a prolific [01:16:00] and globally recognized fly?

Hans: I think a few reasons. Firstly, the name maybe? Yeah,

the name is, is, uh, it, it, it's talked about many times, but it's, it's a few friends of mine. They de designed the name when I was fishing in England and, and, and, uh, the, the clink ha was, was, was, had the first test in the River d in Wales, and, and they were ADing my story.

I was working in the e stuff, but I wasn't there. So the fly's name was actually the LT caddis light and caddis and the light 10.

Devin: Oh,

Hans: Yeah. And the light

Devin: that's boring.

Hans: uh, uh, the, the number 19 color of fly right. And because the whole series I made from 44 flies was the LT series. All made with the same dubbing all number 19 and then they, they wanted to [01:17:00] tease me probably a few drinks when they edited my story and then they decide to, to create a name, but the name with a Scandinavian flair, because I always fishing in Scandinavia, and that's why they put this little on the, on the A, right? And then when you imagine I met Chinese people, I met. Malaysian people. I met Japanese people. There are, uh, people all over the world. They can't even the Japanese. You know,

Devin: They love, yeah. People love

Hans: pronounce it. And that's that's that's one of the good things because there are a few similar flies, but he never made it.

You know, it's the same like my caseless caddis. I published it in in in the flight versus guilt in in in England. And one year later, suddenly, there was the check name. [01:18:00] Everybody knows the check name, but nobody knows

caseless caddis. And the check name is a copy of the caseless caddis.

I don't know if they really copy my fly. But it's it looks the same fly right to me. And but

but but my flies also were designed in the same time with other people, you know, like my left had a German guy make a similar fly, you know, one year later, and that's I described that all in my stories because I want to give the credit. Where it belongs to right? And that's what I miss sometimes with with people who made an exact copy of the clean come and give it a complete different name.

Devin: So you, you've mentioned a lot of big names too. Uh, Lee Wolf, uh, a bunch, a bunch of people. Who would you consider to be a, [01:19:00] a fly fishing mentor

Hans: well, I think, uh, one of my most enjoyable contacts was, uh, Leon Templer.

Leon Chandler was, uh, was working 50 years or so for Cortlandt Line Company, and we were extremely close friends, and I gave him tips for lines, and we designed together a leader, a special leader, which I call,

uh, Tarpon and Sailfish Proof, um, and then the same

leader I use for kids, Because I see with my line, I see the backing, fly line, leader and tippet as four different parts. There, there are no

knots in it. The only knots are when I put the backing on my, on my reel

and where I put the, [01:20:00] the, the, the tippet ring on my leader tip.

There's no knots. So what I

I'm fishing with the technique that not many people use, because I have a braided leader or a twisted leader. And that one is connected to my fly line without knots. Yeah. Nobody knows that,

but, but, but because, because you see, it was ha it was happened in the 1981 when, uh, when I lost a huge salmon, probably about nine, 10 kilos. Because I was, uh, I lost it and he took all the fly line. So the fly line and back in connection

was was was

not good. Uh,

the same afternoon, I lost my leader because it [01:21:00] caught up on where it was connected to the fly line. So that mean that was a bad not so it took me at least a year to figure out it. To make a connection where there was no where no silly knots in it. And that's where when when Leo Leon Chandler and I were discussing and wrote all snail mail letters about it. What? What's the idea? And and and and so so that's that that what happened.

And then I at the end of, I think, in 1982, my leader was completed. But the nice thing about it is this, this is,

Devin: And was that with, was that with

Hans: yeah, that was together with Cortlandt, yeah, with, with,

with, uh, with the court look back in green spot backing, uh, and, and that's what I needed for it, the system. And I needed the braided, uh, monofill that were hollow.

So I could put the fly line inside it.[01:22:00]

Devin: Ah, okay. And then, so what is it? What is it? So I, I've never actually even fished a

Hans: no, no, nobody

knows because, you know, most people use, it was, it was. For a short, uh, it was for quite a few years, was very popular, but, but then it lost, lost attention again. But I, I, because I make my own leader, uh, take me 20 minutes to make one leader, but it lasts a whole year. A leader.

Devin: and so what is, so you're actually putting your, uh,

Hans: I put my

fly line, I put my fly line in my backing about

five, six centimeter. I tie, I tie it up. I tie the, the, the, the backing off with my fly tying trap. And a drop of water,

waterproof glue. Then, then I reel in the, the, the fly line and I put my, my braided leader into the [01:23:00] fly line. I do the same. I take my, my fly tank trap and then I, uh, I, uh, I tie it off with my tank trap. And then I put together with a special needle, uh, needle. And that was Leon's, Chandler's idea to put those braided together. So I got 50, 30, 20, 10 pounds, so I could get very

thin and put it together without knots. So the stronger you pull,

Devin: All just tied

Hans: stronger you pull, the stronger it got. And, and,

and there was, there was quite a few benefits because actually The the, leader was, White and Lee Wolfe had the same ideas as I had with his white fly line. And, you know, if you ever fished with white clothing, you don't do it in South Africa, but that's [01:24:00] the only country I know where it doesn't work. But, uh, but in, uh, in, I never ever had problems catching fish. With a white shirt. I never had problems with a gray shirt. If you see, uh, if you observe, and you know, I'm a military guy, so I can observe very, very well. Heron, the gray heron, they're standing there. How the hell, why the fish don't see it? Because they have a gray, white body. Uh, like, uh, like, uh, uh, McGowan's are, McGowan's are, uh, a lot of birds have a white, a white bottom. The belly is

white. So why it's white? Because the fish don't see it when they're looking up. Because,

yeah, you have to, you have to see what nature is [01:25:00] doing. And that's also the reason why Lee Wolf produced his white line. I prove it for people. They told me

you cannot catch,

Devin: I, I've never, I've never thought about that and that is

Hans: know, I,

Devin: People are out there trying to be camouflaged and uh, you know.

Hans: is good in some circumstances, right?

Because you want to merge with the background. But

why is a heron standing there and the fish don't see it? So, so you have to, to, to think like nature too. So when people told me you cannot catch. A salmon with a white shirt. The next day I went

Devin: Let's see.

Hans: and he and Ena went fishing both with a white shirt. Just to prove this guy was wrong. And we caught most salmon. [01:26:00] And, and, and, you know, it's a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a. It works in one in South Africa. If you have a light head, the yellow fish, they spook away. They're right away. I don't know why this fish is different. But, but, uh, Yeah, but that's, that's what

I I was fishing. I fish a lot in beige color. Beige. You know

why?

Devin: it's

Hans: Yeah, tan.

color. Yeah.

Devin: Uh, I don't know, maybe Sunrise,

Hans: No, no, No?

nothing to do with that. But it has to do with, it

has to do with nature. Why are there so many outdoor colors in tan? Why are

Devin: that again. Why are

Hans: many?

outdoor colors for shirt and things

like that and [01:27:00] hats in tan color? And the answer is quite simple. You know, put put somebody next to you a dark hat and you take the 10 hat where all the mosquitoes go. Exactly.

Devin: Dark Hat.

Hans: That's why there's so

much 10 colors because it protects you a little bit better for the mosquitoes, right? I will, you know, for the real countries, you need it anyway. And everybody can say it's poison. You cannot use it. Well, if you if you don't have the And you're fishing in Iceland, in Labrador, in northern Scandinavia, you get killed by, by the mosquitoes, right?

Devin: Yeah.

Hans: And,

and, and you need, you need deed. But but with a nice telly hat, for example, I only sprayed spray the deed on the inside of the are you call this one? Yeah.

And if I do it on the inside, I don't have to put [01:28:00] it on my face. I never ever use date on my fingers because if you have date on your fingers and you grab your fly light, it's gone. If you if I even had people who have photographs who use a lot of date in the wilderness, And they burn the fingerprints in the lenses,

Devin: Oh, Jesus.

Hans: it's terrible. It's terrible. It's it's

absolutely very dangerous stuff. So I never used it on my hands. So I always had

lots of mosquitoes bites on my on my hands. But But that's because I want to use my cameras. Right?

Devin: Yeah. So. Tell me about the clink. Your book is coming out. Is it going to be, it's, it's going to be released in

Hans: No, no, no. I have a scope. I have a big scope.

Devin: [01:29:00] Okay.

Hans: book, the printing of the book is far, far, far quicker than everybody expected. And there's already a

ship loading to the US right now. The book

is ready. It's

already printed. And it's in a score, a store in Scotland, and it will be promoted, uh, that it is coming probably early on the market by my publisher, Marilyn Unwin, which I worked together with four ladies.

And those ladies are incredible. You know, we worked, we worked in, in, in, in, in, in a full harmony. I mean, I delivered the book, uh, in, in, um, InDesign files. So they actually have, have everything ready and they,

they, of course, they change it in their own way. And so the layout is quite. Similar as I want the book and [01:30:00] what

I only thing I didn't want to, to, to, to get text cut. So when they said they told me, Hans, your book has to be, uh, 100 pages smaller.

Devin: That's a

Hans: Well, it's not if it book, if the book was 500 pages or so, right? so,

so,

Devin: It's still

Hans: so we, I, I I first wrote the book together with links and we had 800 pages. Yeah.

Devin: 800. It's like uh Lord of the Rings.

Hans: So I, we couldn't do it. And then, and for, for medical reason, uh, Leon said, Hans, you have to finish your book now, and then we didn't have any, any, any, uh, uh, problems anymore.

Any, any delay. So I went in warp speed and then John Roberts helped me a lot with, uh, with, uh, with the publisher and then, uh, When the publisher saw my work, they actually [01:31:00] realized how fast everything could be done because the planning date of the book was September. Then it got June. And now it's already in April.

Devin: It's it's like unheard of that

Hans: Yeah, because what happened? Well, what happened is the book is printed in England. It's

extremely cheap in England. Extremely cheap. Normally a book, 289, 290 pages, it's about 45 pounds. In England, my book is 356 pages, and it's 50 pound, only four pounds more.

Devin: Okay.

Hans: only problem is with the Brexit, it's expensive to send it away.

We got all the taxes, but on a book is only 9% tax. So that's, that's not a big problem. Uh,

Well,

Devin: Well, going back. So, what what what how did how

Hans: well the point, the point was, [01:32:00] uh. When you write stories, you you have some editors, they like long stories, not many, but because, uh, they like their magazine filled up with good, good text, text written with a lot of passion and good photographs. So I, I, uh, the last. 10 years I mainly wrote for magazines like that, but, but, uh, most magazines, they shorten your text. And I said, well, I got a little bit sick about all this, this, this reducing of my texts. I said, well, I want to write now everything what I want to write. And then, so, so I make quite long, long, actually long articles that turn into a chapter. And then, and that's how I get the

idea for, for, for for a book because I could write. What I want. So when the Editor said you the book has to be reduced [01:33:00] 100 pages, I said, What I don't want to do is to take away to take off the chapters chapters instead of text. So so so actually, there were far more chapters for the book, but I took off the chapters with which were, uh, a little bit lesser than I could explain the thoughts behind my fly. And the flies

that stayed in, for example, I have written a chapter about parachute flies in my book because parachute flies, everybody has to have parachute of a story per, uh, uh, ants. Everybody has to have ants

in his fly box. And the point is that that end chapter had actually six patterns in it. So

I took out from that chapter was easy. So I, I, I took [01:34:00] off Three patterns. I, and I leave the three best ones. Then, then,

then I, I wrote, uh, about the fly from front of my design. And then I said, well, it's not my fly. So I take that out. I have written a 25 page story about the red bag with quite some new information.

I had gather, uh, from the fly, the fishing Gazette, very old, uh, newspaper about fly fishing in the past. A lot of information from that and from from my research And then I said well the red tag is not my fly. So take that up 25 pages off done And so I was I the the editor I tell you the editor couldn't believe that in one evening Uh, I took off 100 pages easy because this is what I don't want to reduce it That's what I didn't want to reduce.

[01:35:00] This is what I didn't want to reduce and they and the editor You They make me actually very proud because not only because they, they, they use a very similar, um, layout that I use, but, but they, they, they were very favorable about my mistakes because I actually didn't want to write

the book and I didn't want to publish it all by myself because I'm not native English

and then you get this,

Devin: And did you write

Hans: I, I, the, the reason why I can do it in English is I think in English, I write in English.

Thank you. If I, if

I, if I, if I write in English and I think in Dutch, I cannot write it.

Devin: Right. That makes sense.

Hans: So, so there were some people who helped me, who sent me, uh, sometimes when I had a quick article and I have no time. Uh, so I sent them the article and then they, they, they sent [01:36:00] me back the article and they leave the corrections. So they could, I could see what was wrong and that's how I learned and to get better English. Yeah,

well,

Devin: I love it. I, I, I'm excited. So you said, so is it already available in

Hans: well, it's, it's,

Devin: it's coming

Hans: available. It's, it's finished. So it's, it's laying in the,

Devin: It's shipping.

Hans: and,

And it will, it will, it will be shipping at any moment because I actually was waiting for to get, uh, to get, uh, the first number 001 today, but, uh, it's a delay. So, and it comes tomorrow. Otherwise, I could have showed you.

Devin: I love, you're going to get it framed. You got to put that on the wall. I, uh, as soon as it's available, I am

Hans: Well, well, you know well,

Devin: know there's

Hans: yeah, that would that would there's there's really good news because there's now, uh, [01:37:00] there's a, there's a, uh, distributor in for the, for us.

Devin: Oh, awesome.

Hans: only,

Devin: Well, I,

Hans: the only disappoint.

Devin: I imagine it's gonna be a big, a big seller.

Hans: Yeah. The only disappointing, disappointing thing is. Uh, that I, I wrote to a few magazines to write a click on my birthday story, but they, but they, they want me to reduce it to 600 words.

I said, well, I cannot reduce it because 600 words is not enough for my time steps and,

and, and another magazine said, well, we love the story, but, uh, then you, then we must have the copyright for the text and the pictures. Well, I never give away my copyright for the pictures.

Devin: Hmm.

Hans: so, so that's why it's that's why the only the only country where there's no Klinkhamer [01:38:00] story or birthday story is the US

Devin: Well, we gotta get that story out

Hans: and, uh, and now I just published I, if you go to my Instagram and Facebook, I just published the story that is out in South Africa and I mean, next,

there's a next month in May is a lot of stories coming out in April stories coming out. It's going up the whole year. I think there's a probably 19 Klinkhamer stories all over the world that will be published in the In this year.

Devin: Well, let's uh, I mean, I don't have any great following or anything like that, but anything that you put out there I will I will share and try to direct traffic to and I know uh, I know a bunch of other people in the states will will

Hans: yeah, well, well, it's very, very easy. I said, well, okay, if you don't want it, you don't want it. And, uh, and, you know, I know that a lot of [01:39:00] Americans will be very, very curious about my book because it's different thoughts as anybody else. There's a lot of special techniques in it. There's a 352 pages, 675 pictures in it. And this is all.

Devin: awesome, well, I love I love

Hans: And so it's actually a picture book because

on every on every page is a picture

and that makes it quite interesting. And because I also, I have a few books with only text, uh, but, but, uh, you know, I love books with a lot of pictures and then I can do research and see, oh, this is interesting.

And then I start to read. So that was my intention.

Another thing was important was, To do my autobiography. So starting from the beginning, and that's actually quite a

[01:40:00] logical way. I put the book together and I want to tell about my stories. My biggest story in Lapland when I was spending almost four months in the wilderness and talk with hands, hands and feet with, uh, With the Laplander and

and learn more any school I had done because there's no school in the world how that tells you how to survive in the wilderness. Nobody does

that, especially if you do a special education for it, right, like in the

military and that kind of stuff. So, So, so, so, that, that, that all kinds of things, right? You see,

I can, we don't have to have a script. You, you, you ask a question and I keep going on. Yeah, and

Devin: we're good. This is awesome. I, I, I love it. I love it. I, I, and I mean, It, It,[01:41:00]

Hans: because I think, I think I don't make many mistakes, right?

Devin: don't make mistakes.

Hans: guess I

Devin: You're, You're, You're the, You're the Klinkhammer.

Hans: Well, I don't I don't

mind, you know, I. Sometimes some in the past, I, I, a lot of people are afraid to make mistakes and that's wrong. So I, if it's a mistake,

well, it's a mistake, right?

Devin: Yeah, right. It's just

Hans: It's like, it's like when we

Devin: and it's not catching fish. You get rid of

Hans: started this conversation, it was just shit.

Devin: No, it's great, man. This is awesome. I, uh, What? I one question I have for you. That's a little bit random. Um, but for Folks that are new to fly fishing, like I think in the states at least, and I'm not sure about the rest of the world, uh, there is a growing community of, of fly fishers, [01:42:00] um, men, women, kids, uh, you know, I mean, it's primarily older white guys.

Um, but I, I think, I think the sport is growing, which is really great to see.

Hans: yeah,

Devin: And expanding to, expanding to, to more communities of people. Um, and if people are interested in getting into fly time, what would be your, like, what sort of advice would you give someone, um, that's new to the sport, but wants to get into fly time?

Hans: Yeah, well, well, well, well, I, I, I only can look at my own fly tying development and it's just start simple, you know, don't don't start with the most expensive tools and devices just, uh, just start cheap. So, so until you sure you are really into it. Then you can buy

more expensive stuff. Can a member [01:43:00] of a of a, of a, of a, a fishing, fly fishing club, uh, to get to your tying lessons. Because when I was, I, I started all by myself. There's nobody who taught me. I had a few books like Eric g Glasser's book was my Bible and a few other books. But, but, but, uh. Keep it, keep it simple, you know, and, uh, uh, what also is is important for, uh, for, for, for, for young people who start is that if they go to ecliptic, there's always all the people they, they, they're willing to give to to the, to the younger generation. Right. I remember when I, I saw a young girl in, in, uh, Torrent River. In, in Newfoundland, and she was tying so good and so enthusiastic, and she was so passionated, uh, [01:44:00] that I, that I I leave her my vice. So,

Devin: Cool.

Hans: so, so, you know, and, and that's what, what, what all the people do, you know? And, uh, and uh, uh, then, then when you just also, what, what I did was when I was young, I always get under the tables and, uh, and grab all the waste. Yeah, Yeah,

there's a lot.

of waste and then I cut it in pieces. I put it in a coffee grinder and I had the best dubbing available. Yeah. And what I also did was, uh, I, I, uh, I took away, I took my road kills with me at a fresh, I don't hate, I

don't hate roadkill. I ate. I hate road kills that are not fresh. So, so, uh, so when they're fresh, I took them with me, I packed them well, put them in the freezer. And then [01:45:00] I, I, I'm very lucky that I know how to prepare skins and capes and things like that. So I did that. Um, uh, so, so that, that all, all, all things that helped me enormously. And the, the thing I'm most knowledgeable, knowledgeable, how do I say it? Knowledgeable?

Yes, exactly. Then I get,

Devin: Yeah, that

Hans: one.

And that, that, that's, that happened when I start to know a lot about materials. You know, all my flies are based on my knowledge about materials. The Klinghammer is Essential to use polio. And I explained in my book why I can't I can't tell everything, but I don't want to tell the whole book, right?

Devin: No, we'll save it for the book. You gotta go pick it up. You gotta go buy the book for all the

Hans: huge reason why I use poly or [01:46:00] there's I'm so pleased that I, I, I run into polio in a very, very early stage in my flight time career. And, and, and that's, that's, that's, that's very, if you, the better and the more knowledge you have about materials, yeah, the, the easier for you to design flies that well floating flies that is mobile flies that, uh, uh, uh, gives a lot of action on the water. Or, or even, uh, to create bottom bounces like my ladder or whatever. So, so there's a lot of,

uh, uh, things and, and what people do, this is just a copy or they try to copy flies with, with their own materials, but not thinking about material. Oh, I have to put my cable on because my, my, my battery is almost empty.[01:47:00]

Devin: Oh man, well we've been going at it. Good, we killed the computer.

Hans: So I'm not, not a problem.

Devin: The, um Yeah, so I think, um, I think keep it simple is great advice, especially for someone starting out. Um, and, and I also think it like, you know, when it comes to success on the water, it really, it, it is important to use the right materials, but I also think that just getting started, I mean, I'm, I'm 40 and, uh, you know, I have a job and all that.

It. It's not cheap to go out and buy all the materials you need for certain flies. And so I think even just getting practice with kind of whatever materials you have around,

Hans: Yeah. Well, well, uh, uh, you know, uh, Dutch people. Are very good in, uh, in, in, uh, ordering [01:48:00] with Alibaba or whatever, because they,

and they go to craft shops because, you know, suddenly, and that, that's, that's, that's a little bit, uh, a pity is when you have a material and there's suddenly fly, fly fishing on it, it gets 10 or 20 times more expensive when it gets fly time on it.

It gets 30 to 40 times more expensive, you know, and there are there are materials for from which I know for sure. There's more than 500 percent profit on it. And, you know,

uh, for example, you can use 50, 60, 80, maybe 180 different. Types of dubbing. You know, most of my fishing. I only stick with one. That's fly right? It's 44. It's 46 colors and you can you [01:49:00] can imitate any fly in the world. With it. So why, why, why, uh, by so many, you know, uh, but what I do also is I, I design my own dubbing. I make my own dubbing and test it to my dubbing, uh, when you start fly tying and, and, you know, I am tying flies for since 1976 and, and, uh, there's still this, this book, this can with water on my, on my time table. So, so I've testing materials. And there's, there's, there's a

few things that are important if you, uh, people said, well, okay, this, this, that's also what I hear. I think that I'm not sure if it was in the, in the, in the podcast with Anne, uh, like the talking about absorbing of materials.

Devin: the, the [01:50:00] like water

Hans: well, well, the, if I tell you a little secret, a poly yarn absorbs water like crazy,

but poly yarn is lighter than water. So, even when it absorbs water, it floats in the surface. Antron is heavier than water, so antron will sink when you drop it in the water. So, so, so that's, that, that's our tricks. If you know, for example. Uh, if you use poly yarn on the hook and, and, uh, the the hook is heavy, so the poly yarn will sink because it absorbs water and it lose actually the, the lighter, uh, water abilities, right? That it floats

because the hook makes it heavier. But! If you put flotant, uh, on the polyurethane, [01:51:00] it will absorb all the flotant and it will be waterproof.

Devin: Hmm.

Hans: that's the way I think and how I develop my way of thinking in tying flies. So, so, so, I use dry fly materials, really materials that float in the surface or at least in the air. Hang in the surface. Uh, that that, uh, for dry flies when, when I want, when I want to make wet flies, I want material that sinks, right?

So, so that's, that's, that's, that's all this kind of stuff. And, uh, uh, yeah.

And with soft, soft hackles for the mobility and the pulsing effect for, uh, for salmon flies, for wet flies, for streamers, all, all, all those flies have with me have, uh, like, uh, yeah. The soft hackle in front, like soft hackle streamers,[01:52:00]

uh, soft hackle spider, big spiders for carp or whatever, and because the pulsing effect, right? So you can, you can, yeah, but, but it's, it's not easy to explain because I grow into it, and one of the things I see in my flight time career is I went my, my whole flight time went in two stages. You know, it's the same with fly fishing. I had stages. In which I wanted to catch as much fish as possible. Yeah, I wanted

to fish as long as possible. And you know, I can tell you that I fished long, very long, because I fished in Scandinavia 24 hours light. So, so I, I, I

actually had double holiday, right? And, and, and this is the same with, with, uh, with, with fly tying. You go to stages, and then I even went in the stage tying [01:53:00] seven years, mainly full dress salmon fly. But

then my wife gave them away to her friends because they were too nice. So I said, well, I don't gonna tie four days on one fly. And, and, uh, and so I make a important decision in the eighties, just concentrate on fishing flies only. Um, I mean, the salmon flies were, were, were, I mean, they were okay, but they were really, uh, uh, not as, not that nice for really, uh, full dress salmon flies, because I'm not, uh, a fly tire that is very, very nice, like, like very old Clark, right?

He is a very, very, that's a good one

for your podcast.

Very old dog.

Devin: I'll try to

Hans: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just drop me an email. I get

it is because

because he is one of the nicest fly tires. I know he [01:54:00] what he actually do a lot is you have a pattern and then you see the pattern tied by Barry in his boots. Because he wrote 20 books or so. Um, and the pattern of Barry is always the nicest. So, so

he, he, he is so good. He ties a clink armor, nicer looking than mine, but it doesn't, doesn't mean his clean cover will catch more fish than mine.

Devin: Well, I think we've got a good competition lined up then, and uh, I'm gonna have to come document it. We'll, we'll, we'll do yours and his. The, the Klinkhammer, uh, the Klinkhammer competition.

Hans: well, mine, mine, mine always look different than in any other fly box. My hackles are bigger. The wing is longer, the, uh, all kinds of stuff like that. Um, uh, Yeah, and that's because, you know, I give you a nice example when [01:55:00] I look through old fishing books from England, I always was what I was really disappointed about the flies were looking in in in the fly plates because what ugly, but this far this this fitness flies usually where the flies they were using with fishing. And they were maybe

destroyed a little by fish and that were the flies they were using and that's what they tried to explain to the people. These are the flies I'm using. People,

people want to know to see the flies as beautiful as, as, as, as

can. well,

well, when I make my, my, uh, full dress. Oh, no, not my hair wing salmon flies. I drop them on the sand first. I step up my feet and I turn a little bit like that. So

the, the fly get a little bit less nice because it,[01:56:00]

Devin: Yeah, well it's uh, well like, yeah, well nature is perfectly imperfect. Yeah.

Hans: when you study,

Devin: and, and, and you gotta match the, you know, match the hatch. I mean, nothing out there is

Hans: you, when you study mayflies, because I, the last, since I'm retired, I can go longer to Denmark and we missed so many, Uh, Danica hedges and so, but now we stay five weeks and follow the Danica hedge all the time. So when you see how many mayflies that are actually disabled. Are on the water with with instead of three legs.

They are

like broken,

Devin: wing, or,

Hans: and that actually are the Yeah, the failures of nature and that are the first first insects they take.

Devin: First ones to go.

Hans: And and and and so

Devin: [01:57:00] Um, well, Hans, I, um, I feel like We need to do a second podcast.

Hans: we,

Devin: Because there you've got, you've got, uh, there's just so much that I think you have to share. And one thing I would love to do is get your book, read it

Hans: yeah. and then do another one.

Devin: and talk about some of your stories. But, and I've kept you here well over the schedule.

Hans: I, I have no idea. I have no idea. I, I, only know my battery was empty and it

was

Devin: I, I kind of take pride in killing your computer. Yeah. What? Uh, so on this podcast, we end with the whip finish and, uh, I offer this time to you to, to share any closing thoughts with the listeners, um, share how people can follow you on social [01:58:00] media and, uh, and especially how and where they can expect to see your book.

Hans: Well, well, yeah. Well, that, that's actually simple. That's all on, on social media. Uh, I post, I try to

do as most as post as possible when I know. Something about, uh, about it, uh, Merlin on when the book, uh, my, my publisher also will do it. Um, uh, yeah, I, I, I'm lucky. Finally figure out how to post something on Instagram.

Devin: we got you. I'll, I'll repost

Hans: Yeah, because,

Devin: Um, and, and on, on Instagram, your handle is at Hans Van

Hans: yeah, but, uh,

Devin: so people know, that's H-A-N-S-V-A-N-K-L-I-N-K-E-N. And you're on Facebook as well,

Hans: you have to, you have to, uh, spell to me in Naito. Standard because that's the only spelling I [01:59:00] know

Devin: Ah. Hotel. Alpha. November. There you go.

Hans: Because I did

that for 35 years in the army. So, uh, when they when people

tell me how you spell it in English. I have no clue

Devin: You're

Hans: because, uh, because yeah,

Devin: Alpha. November.

Hans: sometimes I have, I

have officially things, you know, like on a, on a, on an,

on an airport and then I am spelling in NATO standard and everybody's looking and doing like this, right?

Because I don't know how to

do it like A or E or A.

Yeah, and that's me.

Devin: This guy's a maniac. Yeah. What, um, and so, uh, yeah, I, I, I will, um, link your Instagram and your Facebook, uh, to the podcast

Hans: have a website

Devin: I'll include that as well in

Hans: Gazette.

Devin: And, and yeah, flyfishinggazette.

Hans: yeah,

I have that. Uh, I mean, uh, I, I, I was, [02:00:00] uh, I, I don't update it, uh, and it's still there because it's the, the, the provider didn't take it off because I didn't pay anymore. Because I went from 99 to 800. So I, I don't want to have a website for 800. So I, I said, well, I cannot, I cannot afford it myself anymore for that price. so so finally I found somebody who wanted to close my account. So I cannot do any updates, but it's still, it's still running. Fly fishing.

Devin: well, we got you, we got you on, uh,

Hans: Yeah. And

Devin: Facebook, and soon on

Hans: I also have fly fishing Gazette on Facebook and I have

The year of the clink. on Facebook.

Devin: The year of

Hans: something like that. But I'm not so good with social media. But I must say this the first podcast I ever do. [02:01:00] I ever did and it was quite amazing. I was, you know, I like it, like in my lectures, when there is interaction.

Devin: Yeah,

Hans: I do one lecture, one and the same lecture, I do it 10 times, just in 10 days in a row. Every lecture is completely different. It all depends on the

interaction from the people who are in the la uh, who joining the lecture. Right? And I like it when

people asking, and I can go into the questions because. If I wait with the questions still yet, they forgot the questions, right?

Devin: Yeah. They're ready to go. They got to go to the bathroom.

Hans: it's like that. And then you get the coffee and whatever. So everything is lost. But, uh, yeah. What, what, what tip I can give everybody who is into fly tying is just stay yourself. Yeah. Believe in yourself.

Believe in the flies you're tying. [02:02:00] You know, and, and what I usually do is I, when I start fishing unknown waters, I start with the fly that that gives me most success. And that's usually a leadhead or a clinkhammer.

Devin: I'm going to start with the

Hans: Yeah, well, well, well, wait wait until we get a discussion about the leadhead because the leadhead beat the clinkhammer in catches.

Because I can't, I can't,

Devin: going to get another podcast on the books. Talk about the lead head.

Hans: bonefish but with a ladder I can.

Devin: we'll, uh, I'm going to get you on the

Hans: Yeah, well, it's no problem. It was a pleasure to do it. And, uh,

well, we have recording two hours and two minutes. You're kidding.

Devin: we're, we're doing it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and I can hear my um, two year old and four year old in the hallway. They just woke up because it's 7 a. m. here now.

Hans: is was live.[02:03:00]

Devin: Yep, yeah, we're still live. We're recording right

Hans: also because with and I saw just a podcast with voice only. You also do that.

Devin: Yes, yeah, this will be voice only, but I might use, um, some of the video as, you know, just, just kind of

Hans: You can.

Devin: uh, some of the, some of the great funny stuff

Hans: I can send you some pictures also if you like. So don't problem if you can steal them from my Facebook, whatever or Instagram is hard. I don't know how to get pictures from Instagram.

Devin: We'll, we'll figure it out, Hans, but listen, it was, um, don't, don't hang up, uh, quite yet, but, um, I just want to say that it was truly an honor talking to you. I'm really grateful that you, uh, agreed to do this, uh, and share your story. Um, fly fishing to me is a a mental health pillar, uh, and, and it's, it's given a lot to me, [02:04:00] uh, and fly tying.

And so, um, having a legend like yourself, the Hans von Klinken of Klinkenhammer fame has been, uh, it has been a joy and I, I really appreciate it. And I look forward to talking to you again.