Mending on the Fly

Scott Lowe_Opus
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devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: [00:00:00] Uh, that way we're going and then what I'll do is just get like two or three seconds of silence.

Okay, that helps me in post. And so, um, if you're good, we'll just go ahead and kick it off.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Sounds good.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Okay. Today, I'm joined by Scott Lowe, a devoted dad, husband, fly fisherman, environmental scientist and author. Scott's blog, Fly Fish Mend, and his book reflect on how fly fishing has been a source of healing and introspection.

In his novel, The Mend, he weaves a tale of personal rediscovery against riverbanks and flowing waters, paralleling a journey through grief and renewal. Scott shares his journey in fly fishing and connects [00:01:00] it to his professional life as a fluvial geomorphologist, offering insights into the environment, environmental dynamics of rivers and streams.

Join us as Scott shares how the quiet of fishing and the rush of river waters inspire both his scientific curiosity and his literary creativity. Scott, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Thanks, Devon. That was a fantastic introduction. I feel, um, really excited to be here. You've had some great, uh, guests and I've, I've listened, I didn't listen to the one that posted yet today, but all the other, um, podcasts that you've published that I've really enjoyed. So I'm really glad to be here.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Awesome. Well, well, thank you. And, um, yeah, you'll definitely have to check out Hans Van Klinken. He is a real, real character. And, uh, one of those guys I, I like just want to fly to Europe just to, uh, hang out with for a little bit. [00:02:00] Um, I'm

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: the Klinkhammer is such a fun. Uh, fun named fly and such a fun fly to fish, uh,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Well, and the fact that his name is actually Hans Van Klinken. Uh, it's just kind of unbelievable.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: definitely,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: He's a funny guy. Um, well, thank you for taking the time to listen to some of the other episodes. I'm sure, um, after learning a little bit more about you and that you are a fluvial geomorphologist, I, after Googling exactly what that was, um, I, I kind of figured that, um, You might have been interested in the science on the fly episode, uh, talking to Allie Cunningham and, and,

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: definitely,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: learning about the work that they're doing in the Woodwell Climate Research Center and all that.

So, um, it, it's, it's very cool to have you on, uh, and then also [00:03:00] just to kind of see how, um, some guests that I'm having are starting to like interconnect and, um, You know, the things that we as a community and the fly fishing community are interested in and all kind of, um, you know, when push comes to shove, it kind of comes down to conservation and maintaining our local waterways, which, uh, I think is pretty cool.

Um, and before we get started, I am about not even. No, I'm not halfway. I'm on page 61 of, uh, the mend. And I just want to say that your writing is incredible.

Um, I love your writing style and it, it's just beautifully written. Uh, [00:04:00] there's, I don't know. How the copywriting process was for you, but, um, your style really speaks to me, uh, and, and I really just love it.

Um, and I've taken some notes, um, just for the audience, just at least in the first 60 pages. And there are some themes in there that I thought were. That really spoke to me, and I think would speak to a lot of people that are out there. Um, the obvious theme of loss, um, and loneliness in the wake of, you know, a tragic family loss.

Um, you also talk about substance abuse and alcoholism. Um, and, you know, Identity and self discovery and kind of a self rediscovery in the wake of loss [00:05:00] Can you Kind of walk me through what inspired the mend

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Uh, sure. Yeah. And I, I think those are the three themes that I was really trying to show,

um,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Perfect

it worked

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: that can be, um, healed through the connection with nature. and kind of like minded people that are appreciative of something that you cherish. And I think when people are in a position in life when they, they're really struggling and they feel alone, that that sense of community and belonging is really critical.

So I, I think that, that was the overall theme. Um, the, the genesis of the idea was, Um, Um, was started kind of, [00:06:00] um, from, from my mother in law who, um, has a real sense, strong sense of family and, um, connectivity and, you know, my family is, um, I'm very close to as well, but I kind of grew up, um, I'm a little more analytical and a quiet kid who, you know, grew up in an area where there wasn't really any neighbors or very few neighbors. So I spent a lot of time by myself and I kind of developed an independent mindset where I was by myself a lot and it kind of led me to creative pursuits, but I also get stuck in my head a whole lot. So to be around someone like my mother in law who is incredibly focused on family. Like that's outwardly, uh, the most important thing to her. Um, seeing how she reacted in different circumstances and how [00:07:00] powerful her emotions were, uh, particularly around remembrances of her parents and just connection to family. I never really felt that. So, part of writing the book to me was obviously wanting to stay connected to fly fishing because it's become an important part of my life. But also, like, what would it take in my life for me to get back to a point of connection and to be at that point or that sense of longing or loss? Like, what would happen to me if that happened and how would I recover? Um, so it kind of was based on the desire to reconnect to myself and to my family in a way. that matched her intention and dedication.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Interesting and so was there[00:08:00]

Well, there's a lot there the I guess the first thing I would kind of follow up with is the idea of the box And this parting gift that

That the character the main character receives after a death

What is it about the box and This parting gift that was so special that you had to include it the way you did

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Well, and that's also a connection to my, my mother in law's when she, um, had kept her parents house and then, um, after a period of time decided to sell it and, and my wife and I went to help them, uh, my in laws pack up the [00:09:00] house, get ready to be Um, transition to a new owner, this is watching her with the items and the intricacy of putting something in a box or opening something that had been hidden there for a long time and seeing everything flood back into someone, um, or the act of putting it away that, you know, very simply, the act of opening and closing boxes. gives a way to compartmentalize or to process something new that you're given or something that you're putting away, um, to keep. And I, I, I liked the, the symbolism of it and the power of such a simple effort that can have such depth of emotion and, and kind of propel your future from a very simple act.

That's that.

To me that was, I had written [00:10:00] that years before, and I kept coming back to wanting to base the, um, the novel off, off of that act.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: now, um, there is Let's see on page 14 a Sentence in here that I have Underlined and and this is kind of as this, you know as the stories Taking hold, and Joe, the main character, is kind of rediscovering that he wants to go fly fishing. Um, and in it, he's talking about his father, Liam, and he's, the main character says that he, He never took to hunting, but fishing, Liam would often say, is being one with God.

[00:11:00] And I, um, I'm kind of of the same, uh, mentality there, where I haven't really, I never hunted or anything like that. But, um, fishing, particularly fly fishing, there is something. spiritual, there's a higher power. It's not necessarily religious, but it is, to me, it's spiritual in a way. Um, so whether, whether, uh, your God is God or God is a higher power of some other kind, um, I, I love that you included that.

Um, and you also talk about the relationship between Joe and Liam, who's the son, son, Joe and dad, Liam, which. I have also talked with other, uh, podcast guests about it. It seems like there's a common theme in many cases where people kind of [00:12:00] credit their dads with taking them out fly fishing and, you know, given them the itch, um, does your background, does your story include, include your father taking you out fly fishing?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: No, um, it, it, um,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Cuz mine doesn't either. Mine doesn't either.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: seems to be common, um, that there's a, a family tradition of, of, um, outdoor, uh, pursuits. And that kind of continues and passes, even if it's a grandfather to, uh, a granddaughter or a grandson. Um, and my, my family growing up certainly liked being outside, and I grew up on a dirt road, um, back next to a, kind of an undeveloped natural park, so I spent a lot of time exploring and, um, exploring.

You know, there's a farm pond that had kind of been [00:13:00] neglected and left, so I spent a lot of fun time exploring that pond. We went camping occasionally. I mean, my dad, um, connected me a lot with music, so that was kind of part of my life. He's a talented musician. And then through work, he, he was kind of, um, helpful in instructing me how to kind of set myself up for Being like a successful adult more than necessarily like playing with me

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Mm hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: as a, as a child. So, you know, not taking anything away from his contributions, but it, that wasn't part of our, our connection or, or my connection to fly fishing.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Was your dad, uh, like Liam in the sense that, um, his mannerisms could kind of change the dynamic of the house at all? Um, [00:14:00] or is that, is that special to Liam?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Um, You know, I never really thought, because I don't really necessarily think of myself as Joe. Uh, there's certain attributes, there's certain things that happen to me that

happen to Joe. Um, and there's some similarities in the inception. Certainly, my sister has some characteristics of Cindy. Um, and then she, she's also mixed with lots of other people in my life. So, I'd, I'd say that, um, You know, my parents sort of divorced when I was probably 19 or 20.

So, and my parents, um, were kind of quiet with each other. So, I'd say, like, there was always something on my mind. Like, our house was comfortable. Obviously, it was [00:15:00] loved and cared for. But there was, um, There was kind of a quiet, a quiet unspoken ness that was in my house.

Um, where I think there was a level of communication that just couldn't, there was some barrier that couldn't be overcome. So it definitely kind of felt like that. I think one of the, my memories, and I may be going too far, is that it was very quiet at the dinner table. And then I went to see a, like a friend, Where they were loudly debating a topic and, and kind of arguing at the table, which has never happened in, in my life.

Like we were just, um, relatively quiet at the table. So, it, I, I would say that I, um, was supported and, and loved, but there, there was something that I could sense was not always, um, spoken in my house, if that makes any sense.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: So, um, [00:16:00] Each page that you write that the chapters are, are short, which I implicitly appreciate to some degree. Um, but each page is packed with a lot of emotion. And at one, I mean, you do a really, really wonderful job bringing that emotion to life. Um, As a, as a reader, it's really refreshing to see that. Um, but how do you think you managed to do that?

and what is, is there some, cause you sound like a very introspective dude. Uh, very thoughtful. Um, and it sounds like that's. Probably that was fostered in your [00:17:00] home. Um, so how then did you bring to life so much emotion and description on these pages?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Well, that's probably the best compliment I've got about the book yet. So, uh, so thank you, first and foremost. Um, I intentionally kept the chapter short, um, one, because I like feeling a sense of accomplishment myself,

and some of the, some of the books that I've read with really long chapters I get mired down in because I, um, uh, impatience builds within me while I'm reading it. But also, I kind of wrote, wrote the book, um, literally I would write for an hour to three hours every day, and I wrote, I think, for 200 consecutive days. I took off Christmas. Um,

but I just wrote every day. [00:18:00] So, and I wrote after the kids were in bed and all that, so between 10 p. m. and 1 a. m. I just committed to it every day.

That's it. And I was part of a writing group where I posted what I wrote, which helped me stay, um, committed to the effort. And kind of feeling accountable to the other people that were in my group. Um, which definitely helped. The, the introspection, I mean I've, I've been lucky that through my work I have a coach. Um, which not everyone in the professional world gets. But she really has helped me, um, process my come froms or, or the things that are inside me that are motivating me to, um, participate in life a certain way. So like what my expectations are, um, and then also to kind of focus [00:19:00] on my control. So kind of some of the stoicism philosophies mixed in with some. Kind of new age thought and kind of psychology aspects of it. Um, and I think I've always kind of been stuck in my head, kind of a nerd, too.

So I think helping to find the language to it and write it down, um, helped me kind of express things that were in my head. And I did a lot of role playing with the characters. Like I would try to Imagine myself in a movie, um, with the characters in the scenes and be that person and how are they going to feel, what were they trying to hide, what would they know, how would they respond when put in this particular conversation. And then I also didn't want anyone to be mean. I think that there's a lot of tension that's [00:20:00] created in books and I think that's important.

It's not desirable to catch readers,

but I kind of wanted everyone to have some realization that they were supporting a community. So the small town, fly fishing, all those things are where I feel supported and I kind of wanted the book to be supportive and to show that there's a good side, that you're, you know, getting back to that loneliness that most people are good.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Well, and, and, like, one of the things I noticed that right away when, um, Joe is, We think they essentially about to get fired his, um, you know, he just suffered this tragic loss and he's starting to drink at lunch and he's not doing his work, but his boss calls him in and, um, and no, no spoilers here. I'm not trying to ruin the book, [00:21:00] but people are gonna have to go buy it.

Excuse me, but, um, the, the boss. essentially mandates that he take time off and ultimately recover and take that time. I mean, that is like such a valuable prospect that I think maybe in some industries we're starting to see. I mean, there are some industries where you just can't take time off. It's, you know, far more manual or, or something like that.

But, um, Like, I thought that was a really wonderful surprise that this guy wasn't just let go. He was, he was retained with the objective of self improvement, um, which I thought was a really important element.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah, I think part of that for me is that, um, [00:22:00] with how, how people consume and spend and, um, and kind of our consumer based life, like lifestyles that we have, things like that are really hard. So, you know, if people start to struggle in a lot of ways. In a matter of weeks, they could be in serious trouble.

Um, I think I've read somewhere that within three weeks, it's like 60 or 70 percent of the population of the United States could be homeless.

Um,

it, it's, it?

is. So, I, I think, and I have a tendency to get too deep, um, but, um, It, to me, I wanted it to be uplifting because I, I feel like sometimes people just need a, a little understanding. So that, that was in [00:23:00] my head around kind of everything that I wrote.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Okay. Now you mentioned the, um, The role playing, which I'm really interested in. I have done very minimal amounts of, uh, improv. Um, and, and I also go to the Renaissance Festival every year. Uh, so, those are my, uh, those are my qualifications. Um, but, How did you do most of your, your kind of role play? Was it written?

Did you do it while you were out on the river? Uh, you know, was it kind of meditative in your house or how did that work?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah, I kind of definitely did all of those things that you mentioned, you know, some of it was through, um, talking with my wife, it's like trying to get alternative perspectives.

Um, and. [00:24:00] And you know, which is interesting too, because sometimes you get an idea and you're like, oh that's wonderful. And sometimes you get an idea like, I don't know if I would want it to go that way, but you've given me a way to go another direction which I couldn't see. So, I think there was that part of that. And my kids, particularly my,

my sons, because the interaction with the young boy I would ask them, like, what would you do if someone said this? And, and I got their feedback as well.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: That's awesome. It's like what a cool family project to,

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: yeah. Yeah,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Um, the, So you're, you're professional background in fluvial geomorphology. And for those out there who are, uh, Like me and [00:25:00] couldn't really come up with a definition of that. I just want to say, and you can please correct me if I'm wrong, that fluvial geomorphology is the study of the interactions between the physical shapes of rivers, their water and sediment transport processes, and the landforms they create.

Does that, does that kind of sum up fluvial geomorphology?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: I would say so. I mean, my, my specific background, my undergraduate degree, um, was focused on aquatic ecology. So, I'm a scientist, um, But I kind of am also sort of like an engineer in a way. And then I got a master's degree that was in environmental engineering, which, um, where I studied with a, uh, fantastic professor, Dr.

Dr. Peter Wilcox at Johns Hopkins is now Utah State University. He, he was incredibly inspiring to me. [00:26:00] Um, I worked with him on projects and in some, um, Classes to get my master's degree, um, which was really kind of a wonderful experience. So yeah,

most of what I've worked on has been water quality, restoration, conservation, stream protection kind of work.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: and so when you're 18 and you go to school and you hadn't really done too much fly fishing, um, around that time, where's the, where's the connection, um, between your, like the, the professional intersection of, of this, this being outside studying science and the water and, um, and then this, this passion for fly fishing.

How does that all kind of come to about?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: [00:27:00] Yeah, it was definitely kind of a meandering path. I mean, the time I spent outside, you know, And we grew up at the time when our parents would send us outside to play a lot.

Um, and I'd spend a lot of time outside. So there, there was my time kind of exploring through the woods like I was discovering new lands and loose and clarking it or something.

And, um, and then I worked, um, in high school for my, my father's engineering company. He was a surveyor with a small engineering company. And, um, And I worked on a lot of development projects. So I saw, um, how developments were laid out, land was cleared, all that sort of stuff.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Mostly like commercial development or real estate type things or both or.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: both, both. And, um, and I just felt like [00:28:00] a lot of the projects that I worked on and that I saw treated the landscape like a clean slate. And they didn't really work with what was there.

Um, they built what they needed, they met the regulations, and then they sold it. So, um, that was in my mind, and then I went to school thinking I was going to be a civil engineer. Um, and then I quickly changed after, um, having environmental class and feeling like I really want to be an environmental scientist. I, I don't want to repeat those same things. Um, that I saw. And so I had fished, spin fishing, gone to farm ponds and things like that. Um, oddly enough, I don't even know how I did, I tied this god awful fly, um, sometime when I was a teenager, that was like on a snelled hook, like I had no idea, um, things about five inches [00:29:00] long, like, like feathers I found. in, in the woods, um, and then I never fly fished. And, um, and then when I was in my career as an environmental consultant, I met a few people who liked to fish, and two of them, uh, asked if I wanted to go out, so I was going out with them, uh, on occasion, and then my wife's grandfather was an avid fly fisherman. And he had tied his own flies and he passed before I could meet him. But, um, just kind of the reverence that she had for him and he still had the rods. And, and shortly after we got married, she asked if we could go to places that he fished so that the two of us could kind of follow his path. [00:30:00] For places that he would, would fish.

And we did that. And after that trip, I, I was all in.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: What an awesome trip. Um, and you are, are you in Maryland or Pennsylvania?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: I'm in Maryland.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Okay, cool. Me too. And so did you do your undergrad at Johns Hopkins as well?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: I went to Virginia Tech for my undergrad.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Oh, okay. Across the river.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah.

Down a ways across the river.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: so how soon after you completed your bachelor's did you go get your master's?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Uh, it was probably about six years.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Okay, so you

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: So it was, uh. Yeah, and it was a, it was a part time program, so it wasn't as research intensive as some of the others. Um, but I kind of, so I kept working the whole time [00:31:00] that I

got my master's.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: for, for me and for the listener out there, because again, fluvial geomorphology is brand new to me. Um, at least the, the actual title. Um, I've, I've always understood that water can form. Shapes and change landscape and, and all that, but, uh, never could define the, that the term, um, used for that. Can you, because I'm super interested in it, um, can you kind of walk me through what, uh, uh, and I know there's probably, A million different varieties of, of what a day in the life entails.

But, um, I S I guess if, if you're a environmental, [00:32:00] environmental, um, consultant or, uh, civil engineer, how does. What is a day in the life of fluvial geomorphology? Um, how can someone that's 16. Uh, kind of start to start to shape their own path towards this, this science. And, um, and how can your average anglers like me or outdoors people, um, get involved and actually appreciate what they're looking at on the ground.

Sorry. That's a lot of questions there. We can

go one by one.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: sure, no, I mean, I think, you know, there's, there's a lot of different layers to, um, [00:33:00] how, how watersheds work. Uh, form and kind of the science behind all of the, uh, interactions that occur to create a stream, right? So, you're gonna have the, the geology, um, the climate, the, um, vegetation, and the, I guess the, the setting that it's gonna be in as far as, um, available flora and fauna. Uh,

so,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: All those things kind of interact. The shape of the watershed, whether it's steep or narrow or wide and long. Um, so I think understanding how watersheds function is kind of the first step. And then all the different connections that can occur. So whether or not you're looking at wetlands and soils, and how those are going to affect water saturation and runoff. Or looking at the stream itself [00:34:00] so you, you know, as an angler, a lot of us are going to be interested in the aquatic insects and aquatic, um, ecology that kind of forms the basis of the food web for a trout or whatever other species that you're fishing for. So understanding the, um, the water characteristics that have to, um, be present from temperature and nutrients to, um. propagate different aquatic insects. That's always really fun. I think that's a good entry point is working for a volunteer group, like stream waders or, um, one of the local watershed groups that goes out and collects water quality samples, similar to the interview you did before, where they're collecting water samples or collecting macro invertebrates and identifying them. For years, I monitored stream sites and collected macro invertebrates and identified them. Sitting in a lab. [00:35:00] Um,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: and it's very tangible, too,

especially if someone's younger and, like, wants to actually see an impact in their hand.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah. And then there's things with the physical structure where you're really looking at the geometry of the stream. How, uh, steep it is along a profile. How wide it is. What the substrate is. There's things called pebble counts where you literally like reach down and pick up the, um, particles and measure them

and knowing how big those particles are is really helpful to identifying the characteristics of streams.

So obviously the bigger the boulders, the more water it takes to push them. Um, and then certain species, trout, other species, they need certain size cobble to be able to build their reds or nests. So they need 40 to 80 millimeter, um, particle sizes. So When you see [00:36:00] streams, I see all the different pieces down to like the pebbles and, um, and

how

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: I, I, I didn't realize that about trout. So they actually will build more or less a nest

out of, out of sediment.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah. And generally you'll, you'll notice them, I mean, they'll be two feet or so in diameter. Um, and there's people who are fish ecologists who are going to know a lot more the details than me.

But there'll, there'll be cleaner gravels that you see exposed in kind of a, um, saucer type of shape. and and there's certain species of fish that, uh, spawn at different times of year.

Some of which will kind of use nests from a previous fish.

Um, things like central stone rollers are really important. Even though a smaller fish, they build lots of nests. They'll even protect eggs [00:37:00] of other species. Um, Um, so in some of the warm water fisheries, you'll, you'll see those types of species, but you need the right size of sediment, um, the right amount of water, the right temperature of water, the right amount of nutrients, and then you don't want pollutants like heavy metals or, um, pesticides or herbicides in the water that can really make it nearly impossible for bugs and fish to kind of rebound.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Okay.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: But my kind of day to day, and I can ramble, I apologize, but my day

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: No, please. I'm like, I'm also, uh, going back to school at night to get

a bachelor's in conservation biology and ecology through, uh, Arizona State. I'm just using my GI Bill. So it,

um, it, I'm, I'm like very interested and, uh. So, this is, this is for me. We go as [00:38:00] deep as, as you're willing. I'm, I'm really happy to hear about it.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah, I mean, we do all sorts of, we do a lot of water quality evaluations, um, looking at a stream or a watershed and determining where there are potential pollution sources, and then also where there's opportunities to put in best management practices. You'll hear BMP. Uh, as an acronym thrown around a lot.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Mm hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: And there's also studies that show what the pollutant loading is in each watershed. And then there's regulations that try to, um, filter or trap those pollutants before they make it into the stream and

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: And, and pollutant, pollutant loading, pollutant, loading, is really just concentration of certain pollutants

in a, in a certain

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah, the most common pollutants are, um,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: sediment, which is probably [00:39:00] you visually see from like the photos of the Potomac after a rain where you'll

see like clear water in one stream and it's very cloudy in the bay, um, where erosion that occurs both on the land and the stream banks washes in and that kind of clogs the gravel and clouds the water so that sunlight doesn't reach certain areas.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Well, and that was,

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: phosphorus.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: and that's, uh, what is it? The Okofunoke or something like that down in Florida.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Mm

hmm.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: mean, I've seen a bunch of aerial shots of, cause I can't even remember what it was just a month or two ago that I don't know if it was a dam removal or a dam installation, something, but I think like a ton of that sediment you could see.

And obviously it's a problem with the Chesapeake Bay.

Um, I, I, I also.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: tricky thing too,

because some of them, you know, like tailwater streams, they're often below reservoirs, um, where they're [00:40:00] releasing cold water from great depths, um, that support cold water fisheries, so, but then they also impede migration without other fish passage or aquatic species migration devices. Or strategies to help fish move around. So that's one of those things that's at Catch 22. You know, like the Conowingo Dam on the Susquehanna is stored. Millions of tons of sediment behind it. So, that's filling in over time. Things with how to deal with accumulations of sediment are a big part of what I do.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: and basically my two favorite waterways are both tailwaters, the gunpowder and the Savage in

Maryland and um, it's just really interesting to think about um, what it was like before the dams were put up. Um, and like the Savage [00:41:00] tailwater, for instance, is actually really pretty big. Small, I mean it's not that long um, it's not like the the gunpowder just I think is quite a bit longer, but um, you know, the savage is so Small, it's so pristine.

And um, yeah, I just always wonder What that would be like, um, I mean you can really see that the water had carved out quite a uh, like valley in there,

um Um, so yeah, just interesting. Um, I also saw that there was, um, I tried looking up some, some relevant projects in Maryland and found the, like the Northwest branch, the Northeast branch, Anacostia river, uh, and.

How they were using sediment fingerprinting and chemical composition [00:42:00] analysis to trace sediment origins during storm events. I mean, that stuff is, that is fascinating. Really, Really, cool.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah, I mean, we were lucky that USGS folks, um, are amazing and some of the best folks that they have are based in the, um, Catonsville right there by UMBC

location. I think some of that work was done, um, there as well as Reston, Virginia. And there's just some tremendous people that do amazing work. amazing research that help our waterways at USGS. And that, uh, sediment fingerprinting work was done, um, out, out of the USGS group in Catonsville. So

a lot of really smart people nearby us.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: yeah. Yeah. It's very, I mean, it's really interesting, especially with the advent of lithium [00:43:00] batteries and lithium mining in the states. I often wonder, um, again, I'm no expert, but I saw 60 minutes a few weeks ago on lithium mining in the states and the The rerouting of water to go to lithium mines for that process, mostly in the South, uh, the Southwest U S although apparently there are exploratory mines opening up further East, like in North Carolina.

Um, but yeah, just all these little things, um, with all these knock on effects. That, you know, with, with, um, Consequences that we don't really think about or anticipate. Uh, so it's, it's great to see that some people are starting to think about it. And maybe it's just [00:44:00] because I've started, you know, this fly fishing Instagram.

I'm just like, you know, the, the algorithm is really hitting my feed now with, with conservation and, um, Watershed health, but, um, I hope that the, the word gets out and that we do start to take into consideration these kind of longer term effects that these projects can have before, you know, before, uh, legislations imposed or before new projects are erected.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah, it's, it's a real dilemma, right? Because there's all the land use modifications that occurred in the past that people today. can't imagine. Um, right. So you look out in your neighborhood in the stream valley. Um, and you view that as the stream that's [00:45:00] been there indefinitely.

Yet more than likely where you live was agricultural land use at one time where they channelized that stream. Um, so they straightened it side cast material to the side of it to prevent it from flooding in the fields more than likely. Then they kind of left it alone. And because they didn't want to plant, um, too close to the streams unless that it was a livestock operation. Um, and trees grew up. So you see things that are relics of past land use. And, you know, one of the big trends has been the identification of historic mill dams, particularly throughout this area, like how many streams were dammed. Um, In and around southern Pennsylvania, it is, they were ubiquitous, like they were on every stream. That was how energy was generated. Um, so milling, um, grain, corn, all of any sort of energy [00:46:00] required water power more than likely. Um, so there's dams across all these streams and filled the floodplains, clogged the channels. And now, over time, some of them have agitated well, but some of them are eroding. Slowly and contributing large amounts of sediment. So, it's an interesting thing, too, to think about the history of the land use, even going back and looking through historical aerials and seeing how where you lived changed over time.

It can really blow your mind, um, because thinking about the future, we also have to understand the past. And it's, um, and then trying to make our landscape And communities more resilient as we've changed storm events, which are increasing in intensity. There, there's a lot of challenges there, um, to fit things within the landscape where you have a lot more water in short periods of time.

Like, I live in Ellicott City, [00:47:00] so

the

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Yeah, that, well, there's a good example.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah, So they built a town, a large portion of the town on top of a stream. And it's at the confluence of three streams. With the Patapsco, um, river. So there's lots of flooding potential and obviously catastrophic, um, events occurred there in 2016 and 2018.

So it's, um, it's one of those things where understanding how you got where you are is important to figure out what we can do moving forward. And a lot of people, and this is one of the

issues that we're running into now, And have you ever heard of The Wizard and the Prophet? It's a book by Charles Mann, it's really interesting, about kind of scientists that were thinking about the visions for improving the world. And I think that's one of the things we run into today, is some conservationists think we have to protect everything [00:48:00] exactly as it is now.

And then there's some restoration practitioners, and I've done some restoration work myself, who think, well, we have to fix everything. And there's kind of a conflict that's created in the environmental movement where people think there's too much work being done to restore floodplains that endangers or takes down trees. And that's a trade off that they don't want to make. And there's points to that, but there's also points to they may have never been there, um, or they could potentially cause damage to other things. there or downstream. So how do you make those decisions? So kind of the thought of do we protect it or do we restore it is a challenge, um, for making our world more resilient in the future.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Yeah, it, it's, uh, and then something you, you said made me think of some things like we [00:49:00] do in, in class. Um, you know, whether it's the reintroduction of a, uh, species that no longer exists in a certain area or the protection of a species and, you know, Uh, kind of repropagation of that species in an area, and then that the impact that that can have on other species, other flora, fauna, um, you know, there's so many variables to a lot of these questions that it's just, uh, the, the answers to these problems are inevitably incredibly complex with a variety of stakeholders and, um, nuanced opinions on all sides.

So it's, um, um, I'm glad that there's, uh, thoughtful people like you out there kind of working through these problems, [00:50:00] but going back, you mentioned sediment and the problem of sediment and I guess the, the, movement of sediment. What is the problem of sediment

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Well, um, it's, it's really kind of gravity, right? So we've placed You know, when the earth was formed, vegetation adapted to the location relative to the amount of water. Um, the geology, whatever, uh, impact there was from the fauna that lived there. Beaver obviously had a huge impact on the landscape. Um, probably more so than even humans, potentially. Um, and then we eradicated the beaver for the pelts, and then there was large changes. [00:51:00] So streams are used to storing sediment intermittently throughout their reaches, and their process of erosion is continual. It's based on, on the gravity, so it'll erode from a higher location, and the force of gravity and the flowing water down it transports it to sea level. So it has to make its way through a network to get to a place where it deposits, like the Chesapeake Bay or the ocean or whatever is the ultimate receiving body. And it's kind of stored intermittently. And the passage and storage of that material, you also have to think about it, some of it can start as very large particles that as they bang against other particles and are worn on by the water, they break down

into smaller particles.

So they abrate into smaller and smaller pieces. That's why you have Um, sandy or smaller, um, material at the beaches, and you can have mountainous large [00:52:00] boulders. Um, but when you have interruptions to that process, either through adding a lot more water and suddenly there's a lot more force, or straightening the stream, so you increase the slope, you take out the bends, and you make it a straight flume, Then you've cut off a lot of the length, and the drop is still the same, so it moves much faster.

And then, if the material can't resist the water, it erodes, and it deepens and downcuts, and then water can't flood onto a floodplain. So,

the floodplains are necessary to filter the water, to store it in very thin layers across very wide areas, but if you just transport it out, it'll get clogged where there's culverts, Or bridges or other things that could block or impede the water flowing through. So, and then, we build houses, buildings that are close to the streams, and we

don't want them to flood. So you fill it up and you [00:53:00] drive more water into the channel itself, and it can't resist it, and so it falls apart. And like we said, bugs need to have stable substrate to live in. Thank you. Fish need that substrate to stay in that spot for them to lay the eggs and the eggs to be delivered with nutrients and oxygen. But if they get blown out every rainstorm, those species can't propagate. So there needs to be a level where the stream is allowed to move based on what's applied to it, but stays still enough where the things that live there can adjust. But if it's just getting blown out every time there's a rain, rainstorm, there's never enough time to heal.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Yeah, well, and, and that, um, not, not exactly sediment, but, uh, the Beaver Creek fish kill, um, I don't know if you're familiar with that from last summer, um, you [00:54:00] know, that presents an interesting problem because All the trout were essentially killed on the small section of the Beaver Creek, um, and although it seems that the actual cause it has yet to be determined or published, uh, you know, there's speculation kind of in the community that there may have been, uh, uh, Rubber chemicals from the roads and from, uh, deluge hitting the river and, uh, increasing the concentration to an inhabitable level.

Um, but it, it's going to take years for the population to recover if it, if it really re, re, propagates at all. Um, And yeah, just a really interesting problem, [00:55:00] and I mean, obviously a hyper localized issue, but, um, I think the example of Beaver Creek is one that's likely seen parallels across the country.

Um,

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Definitely. And there's, there's uh, fish kills far more frequently than, than I would like to see.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: yeah, yeah. Um, Going back to your book a little bit. Sorry, I'm going to bounce around a bit.

Um, what sort of literary inspiration did you draw in, in writing the mend? And what, like, are you a, are you like a voracious reader? Um, you know, and have you always been a writer? Or is there something that you read that inspired you to, [00:56:00] to, to write?

Do a novel as opposed to a short story or Hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: I think I've become Since I started the blog, I've started reading a lot more. Um, and, I mean, I, I do think, um, and I, I cannot remember the gentleman's name at the moment. It's escaping me, but, um, uh, Bob Romano. I started going to the fly fishing shows. I saw a talk by Bob Romano. And he, um, he writes a lot, well he's wrote several books about, um, Maine and the stories revolve. They're either like personal antidote stories kind of in the John Garrick style, which I also really like his style. Um, [00:57:00] but Bob wrote a, um, a couple books that were kind of more conversational, the shorter chapters. Which I. And I just really liked because they weren't just about fishing stories, um, they were about people's lives and how they were kind of interacting with, with, fishing and, um, and I met him and I interacted with him and he encouraged me and so I, um, he, he was definitely inspirational and the fact that I could interact with him, um, was great. And. And I think that reading some of the blogs, I kind of liked the idea of getting my thoughts out and kind of giving myself a weekly practice, which I've missed a week here or there, but it's pretty much four years I've written one a week. Um, and, [00:58:00] and that was probably a common story, but during COVID, I, I just wanted to do something that was creative. Because I, I was feeling kind of trapped.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Mm hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: was a way to get out of my head and get something on paper. And there was also another level to it where, I wanted to show my kids that you could do anything that you put your mind to. So I just said I was going to do it and then I wanted to follow through on that. And, um, You know, the adage that there's never enough time isn't true. And it's just you choose to do other things with your time. And, um, I was like looking at my phone usage right before, and I was like six and a [00:59:00] half hours a day.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: That's yeah. Don't, don't look at that. Don't look at that metric.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: It just

depressed me. Like, I would say, oh, I'm so busy, yet I spent six hours on my phone.

Like, What a hypocrite, you know?

Like,

I'm not. I got sucked into YouTube. That's what I am.

So, I wanted, I wanted to break that. I wanted to break my excuses from keeping me from doing stuff.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Yeah. I love that. I love that. And it's a great example for the kids too. Um, and I find, I mean, well, my wife finds me more often than I find myself, uh, looking at the phone when we're on the couch and I should just be hanging out with snuggle time, uh, and instead I'm like, Doomsday scrolling, you know,

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: It's

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: but it's hard.

It is a hard. [01:00:00] It is a hard. thing to break. And it's like, um,

Um, I mean, it, it is designed to be truly addictive. And so that's part of the problem. Um, what, so we met at the Maryland fly show, which, uh, was awesome. It was great to meet you in person. And, um, my wife's name is Chrissy as well. Uh, you know, so, um, and I also have mending on the fly and you have the men. I just, um, I was like, I saw that and I said, Oh, I got to talk to Scott, got to talk to him.

Um, and so it was a lot of fun to see you in person. What has the feedback been like for your book and for your blog? Um, and how have you. How have you dealt with [01:01:00] reaching a new audience and this, and, and how have you kind of not assimilated into the fly fishing community, but carved out your own, uh, carved out your own corner of it?

Hmm. Mm

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: it's interesting. I mean, I, um, by no means is the book a, uh, sweeping success as far as sales. It's, um, a few hundred copies, I believe. Um, and I, uh, particularly early in writing the blog. I was just so needy for positive feedback. Um, I think I just wanted some affirmation so bad that some of my early writing was for other people and not as much for me. And, uh, my wife, I credit for like bringing me back to, um, because I have a tendency to ruminate and be really hard on [01:02:00] myself.

And she'd be like, do you really like it and is it helpful for you? And, um, a good outlet then. Just keep doing it, you know, don't

Don't wait for that. Yeah.

and So I really haven't tried to monetize it or anything too much, but and then writing the book the marketing part of it is Is kind of a challenge right like you I Run into the space where I've only been fly fishing for 10 years or so

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Mm hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: and I I am a definite fanboy for some of the people that I'm around that are just so, um, impressive. And you know, I've had a chance to meet Dominic Sontoski from Chop It and his blog and what he's done. He's just, uh, he's just an impressive, kind person, um, and he kind of helped [01:03:00] inspire different parts of the book as well. So I acknowledged him in the book and different other people that I've met. that I look up to that, you know, Josh Miller, I got to sign books with and

such a positive uplifting guy, um, coach for the U S junior national team for fly fishing, um, participated at a high level, just like, uh, an amazing person.

Gary Borger, I got to sit with here His stories and talking about his son and working on River Runs Through It,

so it's The imposter syndrome thing I know is overly talked about and I kind of feel it all the time but to be able to sit with these people and just see how cool they are and kind they are and knowledgeable, it's just awesome, so I Definitely feel like a pretender sitting [01:04:00] at a booth and like signing a book for someone It, uh, but it's also cool, I've had people reach out to me and say, I was just in tears the whole time, or, I saw this someone recommended, I haven't read a book in five years, and I read it in two days, it was awesome, um, I've had people that know me say, it was like sitting in a conversation with you, um, and it just was, it was, I just felt like warm, and, um, And so, uh, you hear those things, and it's hard not to get emotional.

Like, there's parts of the book where I can't even read them without crying. Like, and it's not, it, it's, it almost feels like I didn't write it. Like I'm reading it, I'm like, it makes me feel like I'm reading it for the first time still. Which is kind of weird to me, you know? I guess [01:05:00] there's part of me that's like, I can't believe I did that.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Um, so I think that feels, it feels good, but it also feels like an out of body experience. Mm

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: I struggle with some similar things like with this podcast, for instance, I mean, I don't think I have a single picture of a fish on my Instagram and that's, that's generally because I don't catch them, you know, I spend more of the time, uh, emptying my waiters out after falling in or, um, You know, just like, I, I don't think I'm very good at fly fishing, um, but I love the sport.

Uh, and to your point, the community is like, there's just, it's a community of really good, nice down to earth people. Um, [01:06:00] and slowly I think we're starting to see the sport diversify a bit more and get people from different backgrounds and languages and, um, You know, this, this global community is growing slowly, but surely, uh, yeah, it's, I think, easy to, to have imposter syndrome, um, which I certainly have, but, um, it's also just nice to be able to, like, talk about this shared, uh, passion with people, um, and I don't, I've never felt, no one has made me feel like I have to be, Sun Tao, or, you know, uh, um, Lefty Cray, or, you know, like, you don't have to be some incredible angler with, with, kind of trophies on the wall to, to take part.

Uh, you just need to enjoy [01:07:00] the sound of the water and, uh, enjoy casting a fly rod. Um, And I think it's

so important to just, like, remember that.

Because it is easy to get caught up in the, well, these guys are legends. And, um, these guys and Gales are legends.

But, um, Mm

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: definitely enjoy my solitude on the river, But, I, you know, and I think that people are sensitive to more people coming in and fishing and having spots be crowded and things like that. But I also find that almost everyone I talk to is friendly. Almost everyone that I talk to about fly fishing is thoughtful. There are so many artists. Um, whether they're musicians [01:08:00] or writers or painters that are drawn to this. I think the art, like I wrote a blog a while ago about is it a sport, and I, I like to think of it as an art, um, and I know there's also the connotations that it's kind of an elitist

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: hmm.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: type of activity, um, but to me I think it just draws out the art in people.

And, I find that to be really, um, soothing and kind of opening for people so that you don't, it's not arrogant or elite, it's just finding the art in you and it's just appreciating that time.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: I, I love that. Um, yeah, I hadn't thought of it like that. I, I really Um, love that [01:09:00] idea. Um, and, and, speaking of art, there was across from you at the Maryland fly show was Bruce Woodward.

Um, who, like what an incredible artist hiding in the corner at the Maryland fly fishing show. I mean, he wasn't hiding these just like just an incredible artist, but like, um, I had visceral reactions to his artwork that he had on display.

Um, and, um, yeah, I think, I think you're right. I think it, this, this, this sport or this lifestyle draws out, um, something important in people. Um, and, and also. You can't help but kind of be a conservationist and get interested in the world around you when you're out there. And, um, to me, the more people that do that, the better.

[01:10:00] Um,

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yeah,

definitely. And so many of the organizations, yeah, so many of the organizations are. Um, really thoughtful, and they're like casting for recovery, um, and, and you really kind of thoughtfully, um, highlighted the benefits of their organization on your podcast. And I, you know, I'm on the board of Maryland Trout Unlimited and some of the cool things that the chapter does, um, volunteer time.

So, and, you know, all the organizations that are. We are supportive of, um, people that are either going through something difficult or through, uh, our servicemen and women and supporting them. It's just, um, a lot of people looking for healing or inviting people in to kind of feel that. [01:11:00] You just, that sense, um, fills. Even like making a bamboo rod kind of thoughtfulness, like there's so much, um, art to it, which I, I just, I like that part of it. I need more art and beauty in my life.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Yeah. Well, I will say that I am incredibly grateful that the art you've created, um, the novel, The Mend, um, is available and on my bookshelf. Uh, it's actually, we'll go back to my nightstand, uh, cause I haven't finished it yet. Um, but it is a truly beautifully written book and, um, I'm so grateful that you wrote it and were inspired to write it.

Um, so thank you for that. Um, So here on Mending on the Fly, we do a closing [01:12:00] segment called the whip finish. Uh, if you would like to, um, let folks know, um, how they can get a hold of you, how they can follow you on social media, uh, how they can find, um, Flyfish mend your blog and how they can get a copy of the mend.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Uh, yeah, thank you, Devin. This has been, uh, a lot of fun. Hopefully I didn't babble too much.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: No, you were great, man.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: my, my website is flyfishman. com and it has, um, A weekly blog that I, I update every week in a few different categories. Most of it is not instruction. It's more, um, things to think about, um, why why you're fishing.

So it's more like philosophy than it is instruction. Um, and the book, The Mend is available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. You can also order it from me on my website if [01:13:00] you want to sign a copy. I'm on Instagram. Um, and my email is scottatflyfisherman. com, which is also on the website, so,

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: And your Instagram is flyfishmend?

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Yes.

Mm hmm.

devin_1_04-22-2024_183231: Scott, I really appreciate it. Um, Thanks again for working around my, uh, flu diagnosis last week

and rescheduling with me. Yeah, I'm really glad we were able to make this work. Thanks so much for joining me today.

scott-lowe_1_04-22-2024_183229: Thanks, Devin. I appreciate it.

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